Am I Calvinist or Arminian II

[Aaron]

Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

@utilyan said:

Wow that's exactly how Jesus put it! With countless examples.

Matthew 7

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

You think there is more saved wise men who build on rocks or fools who build on sand?

Let's look exactly at what it was that Christ said, shall we?

In Luke 18, Jesus compared God to an unjust judge who renders justice for a widow to get her off his back. Christ did not say His Father was an unjust judge who answers our prayers just to shut us up, Christ just compared Him to one to make a point about perseverance in prayer.

And so in your citation, Christ did not say one who obeys His teaching is a better than another, or is more wise than another by nature, He just compared him to one that is wiser in things pertaining to earthly matters. He even says He's just making a comparison to avoid the very confusion you've made.

This must be kept clearly in mind if one is to understand this comparison, especially since Christ said elsewhere by the Spirit that there is none that doeth good, and that the natural man CANNOT receive the things of God.

God didn't decide for you to build your house on sand. You did that by yourself. Quit blaming God for your mistakes.

Well I agree, but now you're arguing my point...that one makes better decisions than another in spiritual matters because God gave one grace that He didn't give to another. You even said so.

"Every single good act has God as its source." Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

It's like I said, if you're going to argue salvation by grace through faith, you have to argue Calvinism, otherwise it's salvation by degrees of merit. And you've argued both in this one thread.

That is so ripe for a burn, but I have a direct admonition of the Apostle to patiently instruct those who oppose themselves.

 

[utilyan]

Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

@utilyan said:




Let's look exactly at what it was that Christ said, shall we?

In Luke 18, Jesus compared God to an unjust judge who renders justice for a widow to get her off his back. Christ did not say His Father was an unjust judge who answers our prayers just to shut us up, Christ just compared Him to one to make a point about perseverance in prayer.

And so in your citation, Christ did not say one who obeys His teaching is a better than another, or is more wise than another by nature, He just compared him to one that is wiser in things pertaining to earthly matters. He even says He's just making a comparison to avoid the very confusion you've made.

This must be kept clearly in mind if one is to understand this comparison, especially since Christ said elsewhere by the Spirit that there is none that doeth good, and that the natural man CANNOT receive the things of God.

Well I agree, but now you're arguing my point...that one makes better decisions than another in spiritual matters because God gave one grace that He didn't give to another. You even said so.

"Every single good act has God as its source." Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

It's like I said, if you're going to argue salvation by grace through faith, you have to argue Calvinism, otherwise it's salvation by degrees of merit. And you've argued both in this one thread.

That is so ripe for a burn, but I have a direct admonition of the Apostle to patiently instruct those who oppose themselves.

"Christ did not say one who obeys His teaching is a better than another, or is more wise than another by nature,"

Learn to read, he did exactly that. You are the one who is trying to sell the idea of being given the NATURE of ELECT, When it is election is requested not granted.

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

If it was just all dependent on divine lottery of election not even an explanation is necessary.


"since Christ said elsewhere by the Spirit that there is none that doeth good"

Quote it then.

I can quote my position easily. And I don't have to add extra words to butcher it as Satan wants.

Luke 6

45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.



James 1

22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

 

[Aaron]

"Christ did not say one who obeys His teaching is a better than another, or is more wise than another by nature,"

Learn to read, he did exactly that. You are the one who is trying to sell the idea of being given the NATURE of ELECT, When it is election is requested not granted.

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

If it was just all dependent on divine lottery of election not even an explanation is necessary.


"since Christ said elsewhere by the Spirit that there is none that doeth good"

Quote it then.

I can quote my position easily. And I don't have to add extra words to butcher it as Satan wants.

Luke 6

45“The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.



James 1

22But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

The noncalvinists on this board are probably wishing you'd shut up.

Your argument boils down to this: one is saved and another is not, because one is an inherently better person than another. Election, not based on God's purposes, but on the inherent quality of an individual. Ergo, worthy people save themselves.

 

[Particular]

@utilyan's response is clearly salvation by merit.

"Christ did not say one who obeys His teaching is a better than another, or is more wise than another by nature,"

utilyan wrote: Learn to read,

he did exactly that.

You are the one who is trying to sell the idea of being given the NATURE of ELECT, When it is election is requested not granted.

According to the above statement, humans have to turn in a request order form. God has to then look through all the request order forms and pick (elect) from those forms that have been correctly filled out and submitted.

That...is salvation by merited works, which God can then graciously accept or ruthlessly reject.

That is a false gospel and twisting of scripture in order to cull it out of the Bible.

 

[Revmitchell]

You know, when you have to characterize someone's position and say things they did not actually say in order to defeat their position that is called a strawman argument. It shows you have difficulty supporting your own argument.

Further, this often touted claim of works is always unfounded and unsupported by scripture but even still it doesnt deal with the claims made by those with whom they disagree.

 

[atpollard]

Learn to read, he did exactly that. You are the one who is trying to sell the idea of being given the NATURE of ELECT, When it is election is requested not granted.

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

If it was just all dependent on divine lottery of election not even an explanation is necessary.

[Ephesians 2:4-5 NIV]
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. ...

• "God made us alive" = "being given the NATURE of ELECT"
  
• "when we were dead in transgressions" = election is granted and not requested

[Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV]
8 For it is by grace [unmerited favor] you have been saved, through faith--and this [saved, grace and faith] is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

• saved by unmerited favor through faith that is all a gift from God = "all dependent on divine lottery of election"

[Ephesians 2:10 NIV]
10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

• "created to do good works which God prepared in advance" = an explanation is necessary.

Who "hears these words of mine and acts on them"?

• [John 10:25-27 NIV] 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
  • Jesus' sheep hear and obey.
• [John 6:43-44 NIV] 43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
• [John 10:29 NIV] 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
  • God the Father "has given" Jesus' sheep to Jesus.

 

[Particular]

You know, when you have to characterize someone's position and say things they did not actually say in order to defeat their position that is called a strawman argument. It shows you have difficulty supporting your own argument.

Further, this often touted claim of works is always unfounded and unsupported by scripture but even still it doesnt deal with the claims made by those with whom they disagree.

Rev, do you interpret scripture or do you just quote it?

There is nothing wrong in interpreting a quotation from a poster, which is exactly what I did with utilyan. I posted his exact quote. I interpreted his exact quote. No strawman created. An interpretation of his statement is created.
You are free to review the dialogue and utilyan's exact words. Tell us how you interpret what he says. I promise I will not call your interpretation a strawman.

 

[utilyan]

Rev, do you interpret scripture or do you just quote it?

There is nothing wrong in interpreting a quotation from a poster, which is exactly what I did with utilyan. I posted his exact quote. I interpreted his exact quote. No strawman created. An interpretation of his statement is created.
You are free to review the dialogue and utilyan's exact words. Tell us how you interpret what he says. I promise I will not call your interpretation a strawman.

Its hilarious. All I did is quote scripture with no commentary and it offends you.

I'm saying you couldn't do the same thing to teach us TULIP.

It would be impossible for you to teach that trash with scripture alone.

I don't have to add extra words to butcher it as Satan wants.

I challenged back to give us the quote of Jesus, He can't because his quote was a LIE.

 

[atpollard]

I'm saying you couldn't do the same thing to teach us TULIP.

(T) "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." [1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV]

(U) "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast." [Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV]

(L) "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. ... Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." [John 10:14-15, John 10:25-28 NIV]

(I) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me." [John 6:44-45 NIV]

(P) "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." [Philippians 1:6 NIV]

It was a fun challenge.

 

[utilyan]

Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

@utilyan said:




Let's look exactly at what it was that Christ said, shall we?

In Luke 18, Jesus compared God to an unjust judge who renders justice for a widow to get her off his back. Christ did not say His Father was an unjust judge who answers our prayers just to shut us up, Christ just compared Him to one to make a point about perseverance in prayer.

And so in your citation, Christ did not say one who obeys His teaching is a better than another, or is more wise than another by nature, He just compared him to one that is wiser in things pertaining to earthly matters. He even says He's just making a comparison to avoid the very confusion you've made.

This must be kept clearly in mind if one is to understand this comparison, especially since Christ said elsewhere by the Spirit that there is none that doeth good, and that the natural man CANNOT receive the things of God.

Well I agree, but now you're arguing my point...that one makes better decisions than another in spiritual matters because God gave one grace that He didn't give to another. You even said so.

"Every single good act has God as its source." Am I Calvinist or Arminian?

It's like I said, if you're going to argue salvation by grace through faith, you have to argue Calvinism, otherwise it's salvation by degrees of merit. And you've argued both in this one thread.

That is so ripe for a burn, but I have a direct admonition of the Apostle to patiently instruct those who oppose themselves.

" Well I agree, but now you're arguing my point...that one makes better decisions than another in spiritual matters because God gave one grace that He didn't give to another. You even said so."

I would reckon the more evil you are the more grace God grants, with yet the possibility of a person being more callous and desensitized to their evil. The 2nd murder is easier then the first.

Grace is shown with any confrontation of EVIL from God. FROM its very command and admonishment it is a MERCY.

If God did not care he would not mention it, ignore it, it means nothing. Your sinning doesn't hurt God but since it hurts you he is greatly offended. When you are in pain God's tears are bigger then yours.

"It's like I said, if you're going to argue salvation by grace through faith, you have to argue Calvinism, otherwise it's salvation by degrees of merit. And you've argued both in this one thread. "

What is beyond you is the standard man is JESUS CHRIST. So by NATURE man is inseparable with God.
Through him, and with him, and in him, O God, almighty Father, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, forever and ever.

What function of my breathing did God not produce?

I'm taking a breathe right now, LIVING... Do you really give ME credit for this?

I believe your very existence is sustained by God convince me that you get credit/MERIT for anything at all.

 

[utilyan]

(T) "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." [1 Corinthians 2:14 NIV]

(U) "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast." [Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV]

(L) "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. ... Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." [John 10:14-15, John 10:25-28 NIV]

(I) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me." [John 6:44-45 NIV]

(P) "being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." [Philippians 1:6 NIV]

It was a fun challenge.

I love it. Cause any stranger reading that won't draw your conclusion. Funny how you emphasized with bold and still get nothing

 

[Yeshua1]

@utilyan's response is clearly salvation by merit.





According to the above statement, humans have to turn in a request order form. God has to then look through all the request order forms and pick (elect) from those forms that have been correctly filled out and submitted.

That...is salvation by merited works, which God can then graciously accept or ruthlessly reject.

That is a false om Gos is perfection, how would any grade out well enough to pass on their own?gospel and twisting of scripture in order to cull it out of the Bible.

Since the standard of the Exam from God is perfection, how woud any be able to pass this by themselves?

 

[Particular]

Its hilarious. All I did is quote scripture with no commentary and it offends you.

I'm saying you couldn't do the same thing to teach us TULIP.

It would be impossible for you to teach that trash with scripture alone.

I don't have to add extra words to butcher it as Satan wants.

I challenged back to give us the quote of Jesus, He can't because his quote was a LIE.

That is false. You made a statement first and then attempted to use the Bible as a prooftext for your opinion.
You made a specific statement before scripture, so please don't lie.
You wrote, and I quote:

Learn to read,he did exactly that.

You are the one who is trying to sell the idea of being given the NATURE of ELECT, When it is election is requested not granted.

That is not scripture you quoted, utilyan. That is you stating an opinion.

 

[Particular]

Since the standard of the Exam from God is perfection, how woud any be able to pass this by themselves?

They wouldn't. They would all fall short and be rejected.

 

[atpollard]

I love it. Cause any stranger reading that won't draw your conclusion. Funny how you emphasized with bold and still get nothing

I do not believe that you are being honest.

Could any stranger read “he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" [Philippians 1:6] and not draw the conclusion that God will finish what God starts (the Justified will ultimately be Glorified)?

For that matter, what stranger would read “no one will snatch you out of my hand” and think that it really means “hold on tight or you will surely fall out of my hand”? No one. Any reasonable person would read “no one will snatch you out of my hand” and conclude that their position in God’s hand is secure ... which was the intended meaning when Jesus spoke those words. There are people who disagree with Calvinism on most of its Sotierology that still see how clearly Scripture presents the perseverance of the Saints.

 

[utilyan]

I do not believe that you are being honest.

Could any stranger read “he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" [Philippians 1:6] and not draw the conclusion that God will finish what God starts (the Justified will ultimately be Glorified)?

For that matter, what stranger would read “no one will snatch you out of my hand” and think that it really means “hold on tight or you will surely fall out of my hand”? No one. Any reasonable person would read “no one will snatch you out of my hand” and conclude that their position in God’s hand is secure ... which was the intended meaning when Jesus spoke those words. There are people who disagree with Calvinism on most of its Sotierology that still see how clearly Scripture presents the perseverance of the Saints.

Don't worry they will read the whole thing.

Philippians 3

17Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

1 Peter 4

17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?



1 Timothy 2

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 2

20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

 

[utilyan]

Since the standard of the Exam from God is perfection, how woud any be able to pass this by themselves?

Faith in Jesus, actually means trusting what he says.

Matthew 11

28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Deuteronomy 30

11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

Philippians 3

13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

 

[Aaron]

I would reckon the more evil you are the more grace God grants, with yet the possibility of a person being more callous and desensitized to their evil. The 2nd murder is easier then the first.

Grace is shown with any confrontation of EVIL from God. FROM its very command and admonishment it is a MERCY.

If God did not care he would not mention it, ignore it, it means nothing. Your sinning doesn't hurt God but since it hurts you he is greatly offended. When you are in pain God's tears are bigger then yours.

"It's like I said, if you're going to argue salvation by grace through faith, you have to argue Calvinism, otherwise it's salvation by degrees of merit. And you've argued both in this one thread. "

What is beyond you is the standard man is JESUS CHRIST. So by NATURE man is inseparable with God.
Through him, and with him, and in him, O God, almighty Father, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, forever and ever.

What function of my breathing did God not produce?

I'm taking a breathe right now, LIVING... Do you really give ME credit for this?

I believe your very existence is sustained by God convince me that you get credit/MERIT for anything at all.

Psst. Your paganism is showing.

Your argument is basically that since our existence originates from and is sustained by God, that somehow anything we do is by grace and His power. You say that Christ is the "standard" man, and since He was divine, that all men essentially are; that we already have a measure of His Spirit.

It's to be expected, because one thing that all pagan and Christian cults have in common is free will, and works and a divine humanity of some form.

But you won't admit that you are essentially saying that men save themselves because of free will. And to argue against that you are now asserting that it is by the grace of God in a choice He made when creating men and when there was no will of man to be involved. That is a central Calvinist doctrine.

It's like a said, if you're going to argue grace through faith, you have to argue Calvinism. You can do no other, no matter how you try to dress it up.

 

[atpollard]

Don't worry they will read the whole thing.

Philippians 3

17Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

1 Peter 4

17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?



1 Timothy 2

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 2

20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

You were refuting my claim to "Perseverance of the Saints" and I see nothing in your quote about God damning any saints. The closest you come is 2 Peter 2, to which I must ask if "the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" is really all it takes to be a Saint? Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate and Joseph ben Caiaphas all had "knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (it was FAITH - a gift from God - that they lacked).

 

[Yeshua1]

Faith in Jesus, actually means trusting what he says.

Matthew 11

28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Deuteronomy 30

11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

Philippians 3

13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

Natural man cannot receive the things of God, for they are foolish to Him!