Does man have a spirit?

[Iconoclast]

It is a good starter. I have already discussed my views (I finished yesterday on a thread which is still open). I encourage those who have not to consider your questions.

These questions were refreshed questions.
You can answer also as others have asked similar things.
I am not certain I understand your answers to all of these starter questions.
This issue is vital to proper evangelism.

 

[Iconoclast]

In fact everyone can list these questions and offer an explanation on each one, before any additional questions are asked.

 

[JonC]

These questions were refreshed questions.
You can answer also as others have asked similar things.
I am not certain I understand your answers to all of these starter questions.
This issue is vital to proper evangelism.

I'll look at them tomorrow.

But before we move on we need to settle the original issue.

You told Reformed that you had interactions with people (some on this board) who said that man did not have a spirit. Was this really the truth?
If so, please explain their beliefs as related to you.

I just don't get how anyone (even non Christians) see man as not having a spirit.

Thanks.

 

[JonC]

I am going to start off with my definition of “spiritual life”.

John 14:6 Jesus tells us that he is the life. John 1 tells us that life is in Christ. John 5:63 tells us that it is the Spirit who gives life and that the flesh profits nothing. Romans 8:9 tells us that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in us. 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam became a living soul, but the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:46 informs us that the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 2 Corinthians 3:6 tells us that the Spirit gives life. 1 Peter 1:23 says we have been born again not of the seed which is perishable but imperishable. 1 John 5:12 tells us that he who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. Isaiah 42 speaks of God putting His Spirit in man.

While perhaps not a popular view, I believe that Spiritual Life is “Christ in us”, it is God sealing us and “putting His Spirit in us”, it is the “Spirit of God dwelling in us”.

So “spiritual life” is the Spirit of God dwelling in men who have been sealed by God. Spiritual life is everlasting life, it is “of the seed which is imperishable”.

The context is redemptive and Christ-centered, focused on the redeeming work of God. This redemption is from the bondage of “the law of sin and death”. Adam cannot be said to have had “spiritual life”.

Personally, I would not refer to Adam as "spiritually dead" prior to the Fall because the state has redemption from sin in mind. But we can say Adam was absent "spiritual life".


What we can know is that Adam was created with a human spirit, but not sealed with the Spirit of God dwelling in him. Adam was not created “in Christ”. Adam was not “spiritually alive”. Until eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil the best we can say is Adam had a human nature and this nature in comparison to the nature of God became evident when Adam sinned.

When we turn from what is said in Scripture to philosophy things get complicated. I believe we can evangelize while remaining faithful to Scripture.

 

[John of Japan]

Is there anyone who believes man has no spirit or soul (that man is just a "lump of flesh"?

This thread seems to be a bit of a strawman issue. I do not understand how the view the OP questions could really exist within Christianity (orthodox or not).

Asian philosophies and religions teach monism, the view that man's inner part and physical part is one, or can become one. No truly Christian theology teaches this.

Here is a paper I did on this subject many years ago

 

[JonC]

Asian philosophies and religions teach monism, the view that man's inner part and physical part is one, or can become one. No truly Christian theology teaches this.

Here is a paper I did on this subject many years ago

Cool. Thank you for providing this.

On another note, my son (he's in high school) is looking at becoming a missionary and has interest in Japan. His reasoning is that he believes Japan is often neglected when it comes to foreign missions.

 

[Van]

The spirit is always there. When I say God gives us a new spirit I don't mean there is a time we are absent a spirit. We always have a soul and a spirit but God changes our spirit (my understanding).

The idea about man not having a spirit was @Iconoclast 's misunderstanding of a post on a thread a little over a year ago. That's the issue with misunderstandings. If they are not caught they grow into disputes.

As far as I know no one has claimed that there is a time man does not have a spirit.

I believe man has a body, a soul, and a spirit. The body will die. Christians will be given a new spirit. The soul (IMHO), remains. The soul, IMHO, is who we are (we are given new spirits or natures but we are still the same people who are crucified with Christ).

When the spirit departs, the flesh dies. So you say the "soul" is not part of the spirit but is always with the spirit. Those placed in Christ are born anew, a new creation. Not physically but spiritually, so our human spirit is made anew. My issue is man is made up of the physical and the spiritual, and the "soul" is part of our human spirit, not an independent thing.

 

[JonC]

When the spirit departs, the flesh dies. So you say the "soul" is not part of the spirit but is always with the spirit. Those placed in Christ are born anew, a new creation. Not physically but spiritually, so our human spirit is made anew. My issue is man is made up of the physical and the spiritual, and the "soul" is part of our human spirit, not an independent thing.

Yes. I view the soul as who we are, the spirit as what we are, and the body as where we are.

 

[John of Japan]

Cool. Thank you for providing this.

On another note, my son (he's in high school) is looking at becoming a missionary and has interest in Japan. His reasoning is that he believes Japan is often neglected when it comes to foreign missions.

That's really great. Good for him! There are many good sized cities in Japan with no Bible-believing church and no other Gospel witness. And the field is wide open, with almost no restrictions on missionary work.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC said;

Yes, that is how "everyone" describes it.

Of course, they cannot know as much as you JonC. You are a true ascended master, all these reformers, and puritans, and theologians cannot see what you see

You cannot have it both ways. Either spiritual life is everlasting life in Christ Jesus, sealed by the Spirit, or it is not.

The thread is not about what is eternal life, or how do we have eternal life. Try and follow the thread JonC. Everyone knows about eternal life. That is not the issue. I was encouraged that you and ITL corrected your wrong view of when spiritual death occurred. I am not certain you totally get it yet but it is no skin off my nose.

Either spiritual life leads to life or it leads to death.

Again we are speaking about Adam before the fall. Not sure you quite get it yet.....
Adam had a spirit. A human spirit.
Why? what function did it have?

Either God is righteous, immutable, and eternal or he is not.

God is all these things, none of which have anything to do with the recent discussions. Maybe you have not figured it out since last year after all.

You can't center your doctrine on man, Iconoclast, and expect to come up with anything biblical.

I DON'T. I just understand the biblical texts as the others do.
Try it, it might expand your horizons...or not.
You are free of course to come up with novelties.

Do you have a verse that says Adam had spiritual life or are you basing this on how you see everyone (everyone you read) has described it?

I have always understood it that way. IT WAS very nice to see that most all bible teachers and believers see it the same way.
It is a shame the puritans and all the men I read did not have the benefit of reading your posts

What is your authority? Everyone you read or Scripture?

The people I read are all smarter and more gifted than I am. The thing is I know that, and I am happy when I am allowed to understand the same truths in the same way.
My beliefs are found in scripture. Biblicist found them there also, so have all the reformers, and puritans, and modern-day scholars. Maybe someday you will leave your aberrant views and follow those who know more than you do.

 

[JonC]

JonC said;




Of course, they cannot know as much as you JonC. You are a true ascended master, all these reformers, and puritans, and theologians cannot see what you see



The thread is not about what is eternal life, or how do we have eternal life. Try and follow the thread JonC. Everyone knows about eternal life. That is not the issue. I was encouraged that you and ITL corrected your wrong view of when spiritual death occurred. I am not certain you totally get it yet but it is no skin off my nose.


Again we are speaking about Adam before the fall. Not sure you quite get it yet.....
Adam had a spirit. A human spirit.
Why? what function did it have?


God is all these things, none of which have anything to do with the recent discussions. Maybe you have not figured it out since last year after all.



I DON'T. I just understand the biblical texts as the others do.
Try it, it might expand your horizons...or not.
You are free of course to come up with novelties.



I have always understood it that way. IT WAS very nice to see that most all bible teachers and believers see it the same way.
It is a shame the puritans and all the men I read did not have the benefit of reading your posts



The people I read are all smarter and more gifted than I am. The thing is I know that, and I am happy when I am allowed to understand the same truths in the same way.
My beliefs are found in scripture. Biblicist found them there also, so have all the reformers, and puritans, and modern-day scholars. Maybe someday you will leave your aberrant views and follow those who know more than you do.

Wow. What a break down. I hope you at least feel better now that you have had your little tantrum. I pray at least you are alright and will be able to carry on a grown up conversation once you regain your composure. Relax, Iconoclast. Take a lisinopril before you stroke out. Men our age are not built to act like 6 year old children having their mommy tell them "no".

Why did you ask for me to share my understanding if all you wanted to do was insult and ridicule?

Spiritual life IS eternal life. Christ IS this Life. God puts His Spirit in us. Spiritual life dies not lead to death regardless of your claim.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC said;

Your reference seems to be missing your application.

No I spoke about it earlier before I offered ITL the link.

If you believe spiritual life is temporary then it is up to you to defend that position.[/QUOTE]
I do not have to redefine everything and change the words to understand it.
Adam had a human spirit. It was alive like he was. Death happened when he ate. His spirit died, his body died later on.HE passed it on to all men Rom3:23, 5:12-21

If you believe spiritual life is external to the Spirit then it is up to you to defend.

I do not confuse eternal life, with Adam's original righteousness as you do. You then think it is up to you JonC to define the biblical terms....guess what, it is not up to you.

Don't wimp out and rely on other men to do the work.

Other men are smarter than I am. I am teachable.

On what grounds do you reject the doctrine that spiritual life is everlasting life "in Christ"?

I do not deny that. In fact Biblicist , and MM never denied that either. That is just you seeking to poison the well by suggesting that any of us deny the NT. teaching about the New birth. That is not the topic of these threads and you have been told over and over, no one denies what the Spirit does.
We are posting about Adam, pre and post fall however.

 

[JonC]

JonC said;



No I spoke about it earlier before I offered ITL the link.

What do you believe was the fruit of Adam's "spiritual life"?

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Wow. What a break down. I hope you at least feel better now that you have had your little tantrum.

Why did you ask for me to share my understanding if all you wanted to do was insult and ridicule?

you avoided the actual questions once again. There was no tantrum, just reading and responding to your post.

Spiritual life IS eternal life. Christ IS this Life. God puts His Spirit in us. Spiritual life dies not lead to death regardless of your claim.

You are not addressing Adam, his spirit pre-fall. What function if any did it have before sin and death entered? let me try and ask one question at a time and see if you can answer that.

 

[Iconoclast]

What do you believe was the fruit of Adam's "spiritual life"?

Adam enjoyed speaking with and communing with God before sin and death entered. That is no small thing JonC.
He lived with a clear conscience and walked uprightly Eccl 7:29.

 

[JonC]

JonC,

you avoided the actual questions once again. There was no tantrum, just reading and responding to your post.



You are not addressing Adam, his spirit pre-fall. What function if any did it have before sin and death entered? let me try and ask one question at a time and see if you can answer that.

What function did what have???

 

[Iconoclast]

What function did what have???

THE Dominion mandate.

 

[JonC]

Adam enjoyed speaking with and communing with God before sin and death entered. That is no small thing JonC.
He lived with a clear conscience and walked uprightly Eccl 7:29.

Enoch walked with God.

Are you saying he was "spiritually alive" like "pre-fall" Adam?

 

[JonC]

THE Dominion mandate.

God commanded man to have dominion over creation. Its purpose was for man to have Dominion over creation.

Do you believe Christ was the Life even for Adam?

 

[JonC]

Adam enjoyed speaking with and communing with God before sin and death entered. That is no small thing JonC.
He lived with a clear conscience and walked uprightly Eccl 7:29.

Can you name one legitimate fruit of the Spirit exhibited by pre-fall Adam?