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Spiritual Death
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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Well I reread that thread .
Biblicist put on a clinic in posts,130-132,and 134.
It must be in part two, I will look.
Here it is in part 2:
Spiritual Death II
Spiritual Death II
I do not see anything from me in either thread.
I know, I just read them again. It was in this sequence when I did a search...you quoted Mathew Henry on eph2 :1-3...
I will search till I find it....
Here I think the author of the statement is using "propitiate" for perpetuate or promulgate God's good will. Those placed spiritually into Christ, enter Christ's propitiatory shelter, where the wrath of God or decrees against the individual are turned aside, hence the individual is justified, forgiven and saved from God's wrath.
Not in Christ, spiritually dead, separated from God. In Christ, spiritually alive together with Christ. Pretty simple really.
That is OK. What was said in this thread is sufficient.
Even though I did not find it before, I had it on my laptop; here it is-
Matthew Henry wrote, "A state of sin is a state of spiritual death. Those who are in sin are dead in sin. As the death of the body consists in its separation from the soul, so the death of the soul consists in its separation from God and the divine favour. As the death of the body is the corruption and putrefaction of it, so sin is the corruption or depravation of the soul. As a man who is dead is unable to help himself by any power of his own, so an habitual sinner is morally impotent: though he has a natural power, or the power of a reasonable creature, he has not a spiritual power, till he has the divine life or a renewed nature." Henry's word are in keeping with the reality conveyed in Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13. The reprobate is in a state of spiritual death. While alive physically, he is dead spiritually. Hopefully, this fact is not in dispute. What do we make of the person who dies in their sins? Are they in a state of spiritual death?
Revelation 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
What is the second death? It is not like the first death which is the cessation of physical life. The second death is a state of being. It is to be absent from the grace and mercy of God for eternity. It is thanatos instead of nekros. The former is death itself. This is more than just the process of dying until the heart stops beating and the brain stops functioning. Thanatos is being eternally in a place where there is no possibility of repentance or forgiveness. It is an eternal reminder that an individual is outside of Christ. Thanatos is nekros ongoing. Mark 9:48 describes eternity outside of Christ as a place where "their worm does not die". This means that the natural decomposition of the dead body of the unbeliever may occur physically, but not spiritually.
#12Reformed, Jan 24, 2019
You also posted this in post#3
Jon, It stems from a reasonable deduction of Ephesians 2:1 and Colossians 2:13. It is not that complicated. Paul uses the word nekros (νεκρος) to describe the spiritual state of the individual prior to their conversion. He cannot be using it to describe their physical condition, for they were very much alive physically. This is not fiction, nor is it a story. It is also not mythology in any sense of the word. Using your method of reasoning the Trinity can be called Chrisitan mythology. The term is not found in scripture. Neither is the hypostatic union. The term used is less important than the biblical truth conveyed.
In this thread...
Spiritual Death
This was an interesting read...
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It is interesting to read words from the past. I hope others are edified by them.
Spiritual Death
Page 3 and 4 were devasting to those who tried in vain to present something other than biblical truth as believed by confessional churches in History.
Biblicist was on his game there....I am re-reading it now and understanding it even clearer.
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You know reformed I do not believe in censorship and defend the right of everyone to present their views.
We find on message boards that many times people want to offer what we could call aberrant beliefs. [departing from an accepted standard.]
Once they go out there all there are is the latest novelties or old defective ideas that have been disproven.
But as has been noted many times error here, leads to and bleeds over to all manner of doctrinal instability.
It is as if they have the idea, that all previous Christians, could not see what they see. They have a special idea that is so unique that only they themselves can see it.
How do you deal with such persons?
Do you enter into discussion hoping for a good result?
Do you mark then as spiritully suspect and avoid them?
I think that is fine, within reason.
It depends. If they are within the orthodox faith and it is matter of debating secondary issues, you can choose whether or not to engage with them. If they are into dangerous teachings or are unnecessarily divisive, you may want to give them a pass.
@Iconoclast , the thing is that you cannot have a profitable debate on this topic with those who viscerally oppose it, nor should that be your goal. I have said many times during my tenure on the Baptist Board that it is not the people who debate with you who are your real audience, it is those who read and never respond. You do not have to be a member of this board to read posts. I am sure there are plenty of lurkers out there who tune in but leave no trace of their lurking. Irenic posts that present clear biblical support are powerful to those in whom the Holy Spirit is working. A dear friend of mine who is home with the Lord said that he wanted to be known as a Christian who had no opinion other than what scripture supported. That is a wonderful way to look at the Christian life. Who really cares what you and I have to say if it is not grounded firmly in scripture? Even the Apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 11:1, "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ."
I would add that "debate" in terms of winning an argument or discrediting an opposing position is also problematic, and the general audience recognizes the issue.
The goal should be to present our best argument, help opposing views to present their best argument, and understand where one another stands.
On this topic far to often people make false claims about opposing views. The idea of "spiritual death" as presented in the OP is an orthodox (within tradition Christianity) position. But so is the opposing position offered.
A honest discussion would examine the differences to look at what differs and why. The ultimate difference is not Scripture but interpretation.
And we need to remain honest in our discussions. There are no villains here, no better or worse Christians. There are Christians who understand Scripture and these issues differently. One or both are wrong. But people on both sides will firmly hold to their understanding.
I think we have to realize what our understanding is as well. It is our understanding, not some special divine revelation passed down from the teachers we choose to believe. Scripture is objective, but as Spurgeon noted we are subject to a finite and subjective mind.
Maybe God created Adam as an immortal being (as the OP suggests). But this is extra biblical theory without the authority of Scripture.
We cannot hold others to our theories but since we affirm the same Scripture that should be our guide and accountability even (perhaps especially) when we disagree on interpretation.
We need less people with personal agendas and more people for Christ.
"Reformed,
No...it is not the goal for sure. I agree most times those people have gone off the reservation. Once you depart from the historic mainstream you go into confusion and error builds upon error.
For example on one of these threads, a person contradicted themselves several times in the same thread showing they were given over to such confusion.
The identity of the person is not important Reformed, but the double-minded, doublespeak and lack of clarity shows what happens.
These statements were posted by the same person;
1]Scripture presents the lost as being flesh and "spiritually dead"
2]BUT Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual death"
3] The lost do not experience a "spiritual death" because they were never "spiritually alive" to begin with.
4]So where does this idea of a "spiritual death" originate?
5]I suspect tradition as men built theory on theory to smoothe out the biblical narrative. This is, in a sense, a "Christian mythology" woven throughout biblical truths as doctrine.
I do not know that this is a bad thing. We create stories to explain important truths to children. We use illustrations in sermons to communicate biblical doctrine to congregations. The danger is when people do not recognize the stories for what they are and build on the fiction.
6]You are right that Scripture speaks of natural man as being spiritually dead.
7]But Scripture never even implies a "spiritual death"
8] We are dead (spiritually) before we are made alive in Christ.
9]What I am pointing out as fiction is the myth of a spiritual death
10](not the state of being spiritually dead, but of dying spiritually). That exists only in tradition.
11]I believe that man is made flesh, not spirit.
12]I am not saying that there is not a state of being spiritually dead
13] God created Adam flesh, not spirit.
14]Likewise we are born flesh, not spirit
15]It is very inconsistent because many who hold that idea also believe that the lost are spiritually dead.
16] How can they die spiritually when they were never alive to begin with?
17]Also, God did not separate from Adam.
18]But God and man were at odds (enmity). That is the issue, not “spiritual death” or even a separation (in context of the “Fall”).
19]The issue is not that natural man is spiritually dead (we do agree here).
20]The issue us that there is no such thing as "spiritual death" (one dying spiritually) in Scripture.
21]You cannot provide even one verse that addresses one dying spiritually
22]I am suggesting that God made Adam flesh - not spirit.
23]Scripture teaches that natural man is spiritually dead and will die physically.
24] Scripture tells us that there is a SECOND DEATH which those who are already spiritually dead will experience.
25]I would not go so far as to call your position heresy (although it is extraordinary unbiblical when placed against the Bible), but you are correct in that much error is born from the myth that Adam was "spiritually alive" for a time and then died spiritually (supposedly made spiritually alive again or was lost).
You see Reformed. One someone departs from the basic scriptural teaching and cannot welcome it, they cannot process what the read correctly. This was on one page, out of 9
This went on and on
Every attempt to offer correction biblically was rebuffed. Anyone reading could see the error and contradictory statements and yet this person claimed they had it correct and basically the whole church From Matthew Henry to the Puritans, to all biblical confessions of faith, were only man made traditions, and not scripturally based.
Marshall Applewhite got 39 people to try and follow his ideas about catching a ride on that comet....but thankfully not many departed from the biblical basics on this.
To suggest that these errors are mainstream compounds the folly, but I defend a persons right to say what they believe.
No...it is not the goal for sure. I agree most times those people have gone off the reservation. Once you depart from the historic mainstream you go into confusion and error builds upon error.
For example on one of these threads, a person contradicted themselves several times in the same thread showing they were given over to such confusion.
The identity of the person is not important Reformed, but the double-minded, doublespeak and lack of clarity shows what happens.
These statements were posted by the same person;
1]Scripture presents the lost as being flesh and "spiritually dead"
2]BUT Scripture never speaks of a "spiritual death"
3] The lost do not experience a "spiritual death" because they were never "spiritually alive" to begin with.
4]So where does this idea of a "spiritual death" originate?
5]I suspect tradition as men built theory on theory to smoothe out the biblical narrative. This is, in a sense, a "Christian mythology" woven throughout biblical truths as doctrine.
I do not know that this is a bad thing. We create stories to explain important truths to children. We use illustrations in sermons to communicate biblical doctrine to congregations. The danger is when people do not recognize the stories for what they are and build on the fiction.
6]You are right that Scripture speaks of natural man as being spiritually dead.
7]But Scripture never even implies a "spiritual death"
8] We are dead (spiritually) before we are made alive in Christ.
9]What I am pointing out as fiction is the myth of a spiritual death
10](not the state of being spiritually dead, but of dying spiritually). That exists only in tradition.
11]I believe that man is made flesh, not spirit.
12]I am not saying that there is not a state of being spiritually dead
13] God created Adam flesh, not spirit.
14]Likewise we are born flesh, not spirit
15]It is very inconsistent because many who hold that idea also believe that the lost are spiritually dead.
16] How can they die spiritually when they were never alive to begin with?
17]Also, God did not separate from Adam.
18]But God and man were at odds (enmity). That is the issue, not “spiritual death” or even a separation (in context of the “Fall”).
19]The issue is not that natural man is spiritually dead (we do agree here).
20]The issue us that there is no such thing as "spiritual death" (one dying spiritually) in Scripture.
21]You cannot provide even one verse that addresses one dying spiritually
22]I am suggesting that God made Adam flesh - not spirit.
23]Scripture teaches that natural man is spiritually dead and will die physically.
24] Scripture tells us that there is a SECOND DEATH which those who are already spiritually dead will experience.
25]I would not go so far as to call your position heresy (although it is extraordinary unbiblical when placed against the Bible), but you are correct in that much error is born from the myth that Adam was "spiritually alive" for a time and then died spiritually (supposedly made spiritually alive again or was lost).
You see Reformed. One someone departs from the basic scriptural teaching and cannot welcome it, they cannot process what the read correctly. This was on one page, out of 9
This went on and on
Every attempt to offer correction biblically was rebuffed. Anyone reading could see the error and contradictory statements and yet this person claimed they had it correct and basically the whole church From Matthew Henry to the Puritans, to all biblical confessions of faith, were only man made traditions, and not scripturally based.
Marshall Applewhite got 39 people to try and follow his ideas about catching a ride on that comet....but thankfully not many departed from the biblical basics on this.
To suggest that these errors are mainstream compounds the folly, but I defend a persons right to say what they believe.
If we speak of a thief we do not define him as someone who does not recognize the value of honest labor....we say a person who steals is....a thief.
He might not value work as he should and lack things but he is defined by his theft.
For something to die, it had to live first.
This is a basic idea.
Spiritual death has one origin and scripture says it was the fall of Adam.
He might not value work as he should and lack things but he is defined by his theft.
For something to die, it had to live first.
This is a basic idea.
Spiritual death has one origin and scripture says it was the fall of Adam.
Do you believe that, when James spoke of a dead faith, he was referring to a faith that was once real and alive and then died and became worthless?
Why do you believe that for something not to have life it once had to once have been living? While an interesting approach it does not make very much sense.
Before we were reborn we were described as being spiritually dead, but we are never described as being spiritually alive even in Adam. First the soul. Then the Spirit. You are confusing the "order of things" as Scripture has already addressed your error.
Also, you are wrong that Scripture says the origin of spiritual death is the fall of Adam. "Spiritual death" as @Reformed pointed out, is a New Testament term that contrasts man's natural state with the state of those who are reborn in Christ ("spiritual life").
Fir those tempted to consider the philosophy that Adam was spiritually alive and then died, consider Scripture:
1 Corinthians 15
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Sin brought death into Creation, so why would not Adam be immortal before the Fall?
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