Are the unsaved still subject to the Old Testament laws

[Martin Marprelate]

You only repeated your misconceptions of what you already had supposed Jesus meant in John 14:15. So why do you reject 1 John 3:23 explanation? Did the Apostle abuse the term commandment?

BTW, the seventh day Sabbath has not been changed.

Why do you think I have any problem with 1 John 3:23? That we are to believe on the name of Jesus Christ and that we should love one another is, of course, absolutely true, but that says nothing about the moral law of God as summarized in the Ten Commandments which we are to keep. The word 'commandment' (Gk. entole) in 3:23 is singular; in vs. 22 & 24, it is plural.

The point is that before we were converted, we were incapable of keeping the commandments (cf. Titus 3:3). But when, by the grace of God, we trusted in Christ for salvation we received the Holy Spirit, and now we delight in God's righteous laws and desire to keep them, and we love, not merely our brothers in Christ, but our neighbours and even our enemies (Matthew 5:43-48).

 

[Van]

Since all mankind, the whole world of 1 John 2:2 is under the New Covenant in His blood, the only function of the Old Covenant is to lead the lost to Christ. Pay no attention to those that deny the OT functions as a tutor, claiming the lost is unable to learn from the Old Testament about facing the wrath of God due to their sins.

 

[37818]

Why do you think I have any problem with 1 John 3:23? That we are to believe on the name of Jesus Christ and that we should love one another is, of course, absolutely true, but that says nothing about the moral law of God as summarized in the Ten Commandments which we are to keep. The word 'commandment' (Gk. entole) in 3:23 is singular; in vs. 22 & 24, it is plural.

So was only one commandment mentioned in 1 John 3:23 or two?

The point is that before we were converted, we were incapable of keeping the commandments (cf. Titus 3:3). But when, by the grace of God, we trusted in Christ for salvation we received the Holy Spirit, and now we delight in God's righteous laws and desire to keep them, and we love, not merely our brothers in Christ, but our neighbours and even our enemies (Matthew 5:43-48).

Galatians 2:21 the argument is made, " I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." And in Galatians 5:4, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Also the Aposlte exlained to Timothy, "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; . . ."

And so Paul wrote the Roman church, Romans 3:19, "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

 

[37818]

Since all mankind, the whole world of 1 John 2:2 is under the New Covenant in His blood, the only function of the Old Covenant is to lead the lost to Christ. Pay no attention to those that deny the OT functions as a tutor, claiming the lost is unable to learn from the Old Testament about facing the wrath of God due to their sins.

2 Corinthians 5:11, ". . . Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; . . ."

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Question: are the ones walking here on earth with us, who aren’t saved, still subject to the laws in the OT? Being that Christ Jesus fulfilled the law and provided us with the new covenant, but do you have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior to be liberated from the laws of old?

As stated earlier, non of God's laws affect the natural man in this life. The sin in the Garden of Eden separates (spiritual death) the natural man from God.

[Gen 3:24 KJV] So he drove out[H1644] the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The KJV translates Strong's H1644 in the following manner: drive out (20x), cast out (8x), thrust out (6x), drive away (2x), put away (2x), divorced (2x), driven (1x), expel (1x), drive forth (1x), surely (1x), troubled (1x), cast up (1x), divorced woman (1x).


What is spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org

Question: "What is spiritual death?"

“Answer: Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God….”

God's law will apply to the unsaved at the Great White Throne Judgement.

What are all the different judgments in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11–15). This final judgment of unbelievers for their sins occurs at the end of the Millennium, before the creation of the new heaven and earth. At this judgment, unbelievers from all the ages are judged for their sins and consigned to the lake of fire.

 

[JonC]

Why do you think I have any problem with 1 John 3:23? That we are to believe on the name of Jesus Christ and that we should love one another is, of course, absolutely true, but that says nothing about the moral law of God as summarized in the Ten Commandments which we are to keep. The word 'commandment' (Gk. entole) in 3:23 is singular; in vs. 22 & 24, it is plural.

The point is that before we were converted, we were incapable of keeping the commandments (cf. Titus 3:3). But when, by the grace of God, we trusted in Christ for salvation we received the Holy Spirit, and now we delight in God's righteous laws and desire to keep them, and we love, not merely our brothers in Christ, but our neighbours and even our enemies (Matthew 5:43-48).

Are the unsaved still subject to the OT Law? Short answer, 'no, they as a whole never were".

 

[AustinC]

It should be noted (perhaps it already has and I didn't read it) that the Mosaic Law was only for Israel. Therefore, no Gentile was ever under the law of Moses unless he lived in the land of Israel as a sojourner or became a proselyte.
Today, no one is under the Mosaic Law. Everyone is held in condemnation under God's moral law, but the elect are redeemed by the blood of Jesus.

 

[Van]

2 Corinthians 5:11, ". . . Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; . . ."

2 Corinthians 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

It is moot whether a person is "under" the "Law" or without the Law, as they live their sinners life, they pile up wrath, and as a consequence will be punished and perish in Hades and Gehenna. The idea of the Good News, is God has given His one of a kind Son, so that everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Arguing whether the Law or parts of the Law still carry condemnation for violation is like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is beside the point.

 

[Yeshua1]

2 Corinthians 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

It is moot whether a person is "under" the "Law" or without the Law, as they live their sinners life, they pile up wrath, and as a consequence will be punished and perish in Hades and Gehenna. The idea of the Good News, is God has given His one of a kind Son, so that everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Arguing whether the Law or parts of the Law still carry condemnation for violation is like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is beside the point.

What do you mean by "perishing?"

 

[Van]

What do you mean by "perishing?"

I could answer but they you would just ask another question to deflect discussion from scripture. You claimed to refer to Greek lexicons, trying using one to figure out the historical meaning of the Greek word found in John 3:16.

It is moot whether a person is "under" the "Law" or without the Law, as they live their sinners life, they pile up wrath, and as a consequence will be punished and perish in Hades and Gehenna. The idea of the Good News, is God has given His one of a kind Son, so that everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Arguing whether the Law or parts of the Law still carry condemnation for violation is like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is beside the point.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Threefold Division of the Law
I promised to do something on this a while ago, so I hasten to fulfill my promise.
This doctrine teaches that the moral element of the law, summarized in the Ten Commandments and epitomized in the 'golden rule' of Mark 12:29-31, is of permanent application, while the ceremonial and civil parts of the law were of the Mosaic covenant only and have now passed away. Certainly, as I have said, all the Ten Commandments can be found in the Bible before Exodus 19.

1. The Ceremonial Law. This is the various sacrifices and ceremonies commanded by God through Moses. These were types and foreshadowings of Christ and are all fulfilled in Him (Hebrews 10:1, 10-12). There were also the dietary restrictions imposed upon Israel. These were removed by Christ (Mark 7:18-19; Acts 10:13-15 etc.).

2. The Judicial Law. This comprises the various laws given to the nation of Israel (eg. 1 Cor 9:8-10), and penalties such as death for adultery and blasphemy. They do show the seriousness with which God views such things and His righteous anger against those who commit them and do not repent, but Nations today are under no obligation to impose such sanctions and our Lord Himself showed mercy to one offender (John 8:11).

3. The Moral Law. By far the most important part of the law (eg. Psalm 40:6-8; Amos 5:21-24; Matt 23:23). Summarized in the Ten Commandments and epitomized by the Lord Jesus in Mark 12:29-31. Written on the hearts of Adam and Eve; all but lost in the Fall (Rom 2:14-15); written on tablets of stone for the Israelites (Deuteronomy 5:22) and re-written upon the hearts of believers (2 Corinthians 3:3; Hebrews 10:16).

It is often claimed that this doctrine originated with Calvin; not so. He refers to it as a 'well-known division.' It is found in embryo as far back as Justin Martyr and Tertullian, and also in Augustine and, in more detail, in Aquinas. It is also known in Judaism. Details on request.

However, on to Scripture:
1 Samuel 15:22. 'Has the LORD as great delight in bunt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD?'
Hosea 6:6. 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.'
Proverbs 21:3. 'To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.'
See also Psalms 40:6-8; Amos 5:21-24.

So God Himself makes a distinction between His moral law and the rest. This is particularly seen in His writing of the Decalogue on tablets of stone, while the rest of the law was given by angels to Moses to relay to the Israelites.

The Moral Law was never able to save anyone, even under the Mosaic Covenant, simply because man in his fallen state is unable to keep it properly (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Acts of the Apostles 15:10).

Rather, its purpose is three-fold.

1. To restrain egregious sin, even in unconverted people (Romans 2:15).

2. To convict men and women of sin and to drive them to Christ for salvation (Galatians 3:24).

3. As a rule of life for believers who delight in God’s righteous laws (Psalms 1:2; Psalms 40:8; Psalms 119:97 etc.; Romans 7:22; 13:9-10). As we walk in the Spirit we will increasingly obey God’s Moral Law, though never perfectly in this life. Our hope is always in Christ.

Much more to write, but its past my bed-time, so I pause here.

 

[Yeshua1]

I could answer but they you would just ask another question to deflect discussion from scripture. You claimed to refer to Greek lexicons, trying using one to figure out the historical meaning of the Greek word found in John 3:16.

It is moot whether a person is "under" the "Law" or without the Law, as they live their sinners life, they pile up wrath, and as a consequence will be punished and perish in Hades and Gehenna. The idea of the Good News, is God has given His one of a kind Son, so that everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Arguing whether the Law or parts of the Law still carry condemnation for violation is like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It is beside the point.

Do you see perishing as eternal, or as we get burnt up and no more existing?

 

[Yeshua1]

The Threefold Division of the Law
I promised to do something on this a while ago, so I hasten to fulfill my promise.
This doctrine teaches that the moral element of the law, summarized in the Ten Commandments and epitomized in the 'golden rule' of Mark 12:29-31, is of permanent application, while the ceremonial and civil parts of the law were of the Mosaic covenant only and have now passed away. Certainly, as I have said, all the Ten Commandments can be found in the Bible before Exodus 19.

1. The Ceremonial Law. This is the various sacrifices and ceremonies commanded by God through Moses. These were types and foreshadowings of Christ and are all fulfilled in Him (Hebrews 10:1, 10-12). There were also the dietary restrictions imposed upon Israel. These were removed by Christ (Mark 7:18-19; Acts 10:13-15 etc.).

2. The Judicial Law. This comprises the various laws given to the nation of Israel (eg. 1 Cor 9:8-10), and penalties such as death for adultery and blasphemy. They do show the seriousness with which God views such things and His righteous anger against those who commit them and do not repent, but Nations today are under no obligation to impose such sanctions and our Lord Himself showed mercy to one offender (John 8:11).

3. The Moral Law. By far the most important part of the law (eg. Psalm 40:6-8; Amos 5:21-24; Matt 23:23). Summarized in the Ten Commandments and epitomized by the Lord Jesus in Mark 12:29-31. Written on the hearts of Adam and Eve; all but lost in the Fall (Rom 2:14-15); written on tablets of stone for the Israelites (Deuteronomy 5:22) and re-written upon the hearts of believers (2 Corinthians 3:3; Hebrews 10:16).

It is often claimed that this doctrine originated with Calvin; not so. He refers to it as a 'well-known division.' It is found in embryo as far back as Justin Martyr and Tertullian, and also in Augustine and, in more detail, in Aquinas. It is also known in Judaism. Details on request.

However, on to Scripture:
1 Samuel 15:22. 'Has the LORD as great delight in bunt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD?'
Hosea 6:6. 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.'
Proverbs 21:3. 'To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.'
See also Psalms 40:6-8; Amos 5:21-24.

So God Himself makes a distinction between His moral law and the rest. This is particularly seen in His writing of the Decalogue on tablets of stone, while the rest of the law was given by angels to Moses to relay to the Israelites.

The Moral Law was never able to save anyone, even under the Mosaic Covenant, simply because man in his fallen state is unable to keep it properly (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Acts of the Apostles 15:10).

Rather, its purpose is three-fold.

1. To restrain egregious sin, even in unconverted people (Romans 2:15).

2. To convict men and women of sin and to drive them to Christ for salvation (Galatians 3:24).

3. As a rule of life for believers who delight in God’s righteous laws (Psalms 1:2; Psalms 40:8; Psalms 119:97 etc.; Romans 7:22; 13:9-10). As we walk in the Spirit we will increasingly obey God’s Moral Law, though never perfectly in this life. Our hope is always in Christ.

Much more to write, but its past my bed-time, so I pause here.

This is why NCT is enticing to many,as they wish to boil it all down to just "obeying law of Christ", but that Same Jesus gave to Moses His 10 Commandments and that Moral law!

 

[Van]

Do you see perishing as eternal, or as we get burnt up and no more existing?

I see you really cannot understand the meaning provided in the lexicon for perish in John 3:16.

 

[Yeshua1]

I see you really cannot understand the meaning provided in the lexicon for perish in John 3:16.

what is YOUR answer?

 

[MB]

The point is that before we were converted, we were incapable of keeping the commandments (cf. Titus 3:3)

This statement is not true nor is it backed up by the verse you presented. Many non saved keep the Laws. If not the world would be much worse than it is. Not everyone is a murderer Not everyone commits adultery. Not every woman is a whore when they get married. Not everyone is a theif. You simply are wrong.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

This statement is not true nor is it backed up by the verse you presented. Many non saved keep the Laws. If not the world would be much worse than it is. Not everyone is a murderer Not everyone commits adultery. Not every woman is a whore when they get married. Not everyone is a theif. You simply are wrong.
MB

Only Jesus EVER kept the Law as required by God in order to merit being justified!
None of the saved can keep it fully, much less unsaved!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This statement is not true nor is it backed up by the verse you presented. Many non saved keep the Laws. If not the world would be much worse than it is. Not everyone is a murderer Not everyone commits adultery. Not every woman is a whore when they get married. Not everyone is a thief. You simply are wrong.
MB

I quite agree with you that there are many unsaved people who live outwardly respectable lives, who set themselves high standards and are upset whenever they do not achieve them. I know many such people, and could wish that they weren't so righteous, because it makes them harder to save (cf. Luke 7:41-43).

Because there is no third realm, no half-way house between the saved and the lost. One is either alive unto God or dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1-3). 'So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:8).

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I quite agree with you that there are many unsaved people who live outwardly respectable lives, who set themselves high standards and are upset whenever they do not achieve them. I know many such people, and could wish that they weren't so righteous, because it makes them harder to save (cf. Luke 7:41-43).

Because there is no third realm, no half-way house between the saved and the lost. One is either alive unto God or dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1-3). 'So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God' (Romans 8:8).

One of my favorite lines after a failure is, “I’m better than that.” No, you’re not. You need Jesus just like everyone else.