Faulty Theology

[MB]

When God finished his creation He said "It is good." Would God call anything that is not holy..."good?"

Adam and Eve are made in the image of God. Is God Spirit? Would God create a non-spiritual being and say it was made in the image of God?

You and Jon are both arguing from silence by claiming that since you don't see the term spirit discussed in Genesis 1-3, Adam and Eve could not therefore have a spirit.

The Hebrew definition of a golem fits with Jon's view.

Here you go again living by interpretation instead of what does God's word actually say.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

Spiritually alive means a person has been justified by God, their sins forgiven, and has the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

Where is your scripture that defines it

 

[Revmitchell]

Well, he called his creation "very good". He called land animals and sea creatures good (Gen. 1:21, Gen. 1:25) Elephants are not holy. Whales are not holy.



Constructing hypothetical questions is not an argument.



Another strawman.

Define holy

 

[MB]

Yalls mistake is thinking if its not explicitly stated then it cant be. You misunderstand scripture.

Now I ask you. How do you understand being spiritually alive?

According to you everyone except you is wrong. You are another one who lives by your interpretation instead of what does God's word say
MB

 

[InTheLight]

Where is your scripture that defines it

Romans 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Eph. 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

2 Cor. 1:21-22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

 

[MB]

Define holy

Holy is perfection. Perfection does not sin nor can it Adam sinned even before he ate the fruit if you like being technical. Simply because he also thought of eating from the tree before he did

MB

 

[InTheLight]

Define holy

Sinless, sacred, and worthy of worship.

 

[Revmitchell]

Romans 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Eph. 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

2 Cor. 1:21-22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Now show me in the ot where they were indwelt

 

[JonC]

But we are talking about pre fall adam who was not dependent on Christ

I am not. I am talking about the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and the "first Adam" created natural, not spiritual.

Is there a passage that says Adam was created spiritual and then this human spirit died that we can examine?

 

[Revmitchell]

Sinless, sacred, and worthy of worship.

Show me your scripture

 

[Revmitchell]

I am not. I am talking about the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world and the "first Adam" created natural, not spiritual.

Is there a passage that says Adam was created spiritual and then this human spirit died that we can examine?

Is there a passage that says it wasnt? Again what does it mean to be spiritually alive?

 

[Yeshua1]

I have told you what the Bible actually says (what is written in the text of Scripture). You have told me what you believe the Bible teaches (not "what is written" but what you believe Scripture is telling you).

I have answered repeatedly. Don't be too wise for Scripture, David. You ask what Adam was before he sinned. I told you. The Bible states that Adam was "natural man", "not spiritual man", "a living soul", "flesh", and "upright".

What does the Bible NOT say? The Bible does NOT say that Adam was created spiritual and died spiritually when he ate of the fruit. YOU say that. The Bible does not. It amazes me that you cannot see this.

Try this - type out the text of Scripture and put in bold where the Bible states that Adam was created alive in the Spirit.
Then put in bold where Scripture states that Adam spiritually died.

You cannot because it is not in Scripture. It is something your theology teaches you, and it is something upon which your theology hinges. But it is not actually in the Bible (in "what is written", much less in "what is written again").

As @Martin Marprelate clearly pointed out with his method of "Scripture interpreting Scripture", the other time the Bible uses "die, die", it is VERY clear that Scripture is speaking of death as physical (the death of the body).

Adam was in a right relationship with God before the fall, he did not need messiah while in the sinless state, so he had to have spiritual life with god at that time! he was natural, but we also are both natural and have spiritual life now...
And we really do not know just how glorious Adam was before he fell, as he would have been the greatest creation project of God, His crown Jewel!
And also, we do know that per the Bible, death did not enter into creation until there was sin and the fall, so Adam would indeed have lived forever with God in paradise if he had not fallen!

 

[InTheLight]

Show me your scripture

I don't know that there is a verse or verses that spell it out as a definition. The only thing I can think of is when God was the burning bush and appeared to Moses. He said to take off his sandals because he was standing on "holy ground". That would be sacred ground. God was there and was worthy of worship. Moses could not look upon him and was frightened.

What is the definition of the hebrew word for "holy"?

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe that we "are in the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in [us]" (Romans 8:9). It is the Spirit who gives life (John 6:63) and the mind set on the Spirit is life (Romans 8:6). I also believe that the Adam, the first man, became a living soul while the last Adam, Christ, became a life giving spirit; the spiritual is not first, but the natural then the spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:45-46).

I tend to define being alive in the Spirit as living by the Spirit (Galatians 5:25) and being born of imperishable seed (1 Peter 1:23). It is a joining of a person to the Lord (1 Corinthians 6:17) by God putting His Spirit in us (Ezekiel 36:27) and being led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14).

The very short answer is that I believe Christ is the life (John 1:4, 6:35) and those who are alive in the Spirit are sealed by Bod and given the Spirit in our hearts (2 Corinthians 1:22).

So to read that people believe Adam was alive in the Spirit and then experienced dying spiritually is a bit troubling because it denounces all my belief as stated above and does so with no biblical authority (thus far).

What do you believe that it is to be alive in the Spirit?

Adam was a unique case, being created by God to be sinless human, and as such, was in a state that was in spiritual relationship with God directly, as did not need any mediator between him and God...
Spiritual life means to be in a spiritual relationship, to be known of By God as One of his own children...

 

[InTheLight]

Now show me in the ot where they were indwelt

Rather than play this game, why don't you simply lay out what you believe? I've done my part.

 

[Yeshua1]

Um the ot saints were not indwelt as the church is but that does not make them spiritually dead. Cant hold them to the church standard. That is not hiw God worked with them

They were still regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and Adam before he fell was in a unique situation!

 

[Yeshua1]

The thing about Adam and Eve is that they were holy as God is holy.
When they sinned, that state of holiness was lost.
What we see, however, is that their lost state was short lived. God manifested Himself in the garden and quickly, by His Sovereign will, chose to extend grace to Adam and Eve.
Like with all the elect, God chose to redeem Adam and Eve. He could have chosen to kill them instantly and start all over with a new holy race of humanity, but instead God extended His Amazing, saving, Grace.
When God says "dying you shall die", God is referring to the flesh dying, not to Adam and Eve's spirit. Their spirit is held in the gracious hands of God; redeemed unto eternity by Christ Jesus atoning sacrifice.

david, has accurately questioned how a person who had no spirit to begin with could then become spiritually dead. The answer is...that person couldn't. That person would need to have a spirit that was alive in order for that person to die spiritually.
Being made in the image of God, Adam and Eve would, like God, have a spirit. When we see them sin, we see that spirit being tainted and corrupted, but as soon as God chooses to redeem them their spirits are graciously restored to relationship with the Creator.

If JonC wants to promote the "golem" theory, so be it. It's a quirky take on Adam and Eve that little to none will hold. Jon, feel free to live on that island if you wish.

God created Adam with physical life, but then also "breathed" spiritual life into Him, as Adam could not have any relationship with god apart from having spiritual life when created!

 

[Yeshua1]

Here you go again living by interpretation instead of what does God's word actually say.
MB

So says the one holding to non biblical theology themselves!

 

[Yeshua1]

Define holy

Pure and undefiled

 

[George Antonios]

I have told you what the Bible actually says (what is written in the text of Scripture). You have told me what you believe the Bible teaches (not "what is written" but what you believe Scripture is telling you).

I have answered repeatedly. Don't be too wise for Scripture, David. You ask what Adam was before he sinned. I told you. The Bible states that Adam was "natural man", "not spiritual man", "a living soul", "flesh", and "upright".

What does the Bible NOT say? The Bible does NOT say that Adam was created spiritual and died spiritually when he ate of the fruit. YOU say that. The Bible does not. It amazes me that you cannot see this.

Try this - type out the text of Scripture and put in bold where the Bible states that Adam was created alive in the Spirit.
Then put in bold where Scripture states that Adam spiritually died.

You cannot because it is not in Scripture. It is something your theology teaches you, and it is something upon which your theology hinges. But it is not actually in the Bible (in "what is written", much less in "what is written again").

As @Martin Marprelate clearly pointed out with his method of "Scripture interpreting Scripture", the other time the Bible uses "die, die", it is VERY clear that Scripture is speaking of death as physical (the death of the body).

@JonC I'd love to discuss this topic with you but I'm afraid I'm still where we left off last time, simply trying to understand your interpretation of Genesis 2:17 before I can even address it.