Church forgives sins of those stricken by virus

[Wesley Briggman]

Church forgives sins of those stricken by virus

"The conditions include the sick saying a certain number of prayers or following important celebrations from a distance.

Those who pray for the caregivers' wellbeing must also read the Bible "for at least half an hour"."

Works, either prior to salvation or afterwards, cannot achieve the forgiveness of sins. Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can wash away sin.

[Heb 9:22 ESV] Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Those who believe sin can be forgiven if they "read the Bible "for at least half an hour" are spiritually blind and are practicing blind faith!!

 

[Van]

My failing eyes betrayed me, I read your OP title as Churches forgive sins of those stricken with virtue.
We are all blind in some respect therefore humility and open-mindedness will minimize our sins of ignorance.

 

[Walpole]

John 20:19-23 ---> On the evening d of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then i the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

 

[canadyjd]

John 20:19-23 ---> On the evening d of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then i the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

The second part is conditioned on the first. It is true only when they are acting within the will of God the Father, as Jesus acted within the will of God the Father.

If you are acting within the will of God the Father, you will acknowledge that forgiveness of sins comes only by faith in Jesus, not from any man. Only God can forgive sins.

The other assertion is true, as well. If you are following the will of God the Father, you can point out that those who believe they are receiving forgiveness of sins in any other way than by faith in Jesus, are not receiving forgiveness at all.

peace to you

 

[Walpole]

The second part is conditioned on the first. It is true only when they are acting within the will of God the Father, as Jesus acted within the will of God the Father.

If you are acting within the will of God the Father, you will acknowledge that forgiveness of sins comes only by faith in Jesus, not from any man. Only God can forgive sins.

The other assertion is true, as well. If you are following the will of God the Father, you can point out that those who believe they are receiving forgiveness of sins in any other way than by faith in Jesus, are not receiving forgiveness at all.

peace to you

I'm sorry but that is not what Jesus said in the Upper Room that Easter evening. He breathes on the Apostles (a significant detail) and tells them that they can forgive sins.

 

[David Kent]

I'm sorry but that is not what Jesus said in the Upper Room that Easter evening. He breathes on the Apostles (a significant detail) and tells them that they can forgive sins.

There are no apostles now.

 

[Walpole]

There are no apostles now.

True, but they have successors and hence their ministry continues.

 

[Dave G]

Church forgives sins of those stricken by virus

" And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" ( Luke 5:21 ).
No one can forgive sins but God alone.

Works, either prior to salvation or afterwards, cannot achieve the forgiveness of sins. Only the shed blood of Jesus Christ can wash away sin.

Amen, Wesley.

" Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth." ( Romans 8:33, AV ).
" Who shall accuse against the elect of God? God that justifieth." ( Romans 8:33, Douay-Rheims 1899 ).

God alone justifies ( makes people righteous ), and men or institutions of men are not God.

His sheep are justified by His blood ( Romans 5:9 ).
Christ's blood shed on the cross for His people ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, Ephesians 5:25 ), are what washes away sins.
Those sins were remitted 2,000 years ago ( Colossians 2:13-14 ) on His cross.
Our faith in that is the evidence of the things that occurred for us, but are not seen by us ( Hebrews 11:1 )... yet, by His word we believe it, and believing it shows that we are saved.


Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and His finished work on the cross for us.
May the Lord be praised for His unspeakable gift of eternal life, my friend...

Always.

 

[canadyjd]

I'm sorry but that is not what Jesus said in the Upper Room that Easter evening. He breathes on the Apostles (a significant detail) and tells them that they can forgive sins.

The “breath of Jesus” is God Holy Spirit coming upon them with a permanent indwelling.

This issue is really no different than when Jesus said that if you ask anything of the Father in His name, it would be granted.

He was not saying to add the phrase, “in Jesus name I pray”, at the end of the prayer. He is saying that when your prayers are aligned with the will of God, the cause of Christ, the prayers will be answered.

Jesus said He was sending them as the Father has sent Him. How did the Father send Jesus? He sent Jesus with the good news that forgiveness of sins no longer occurred in the temple with animal sacrifices, but rather through faith in Jesus.

As long as the Apostles’ message remained within God’s will, they could proclaim that someone’s sin had been forgiven based on their faith in Jesus and they had no need to seek forgiveness through temple sacrifices. On the other hand, they could also proclaim sins remained for any who sought forgiveness of sins in any other method but faith in Jesus.

I understand the teaching of RCC that forgiveness of sins was entrusted to the Apostles and then passed on through a hierarchy of cardinals, bishops, priests and finally dispensed to the common person.

I believe that is a misunderstanding of scripture.

peace to you

 

[Walpole]

The “breath of Jesus” is God Holy Spirit coming upon them with a permanent indwelling.

This issue is really no different than when Jesus said that if you ask anything of the Father in His name, it would be granted.

He was not saying to add the phrase, “in Jesus name I pray”, at the end of the prayer. He is saying that when your prayers are aligned with the will of God, the cause of Christ, the prayers will be answered.

Jesus said He was sending them as the Father has sent Him. How did the Father send Jesus? He sent Jesus with the good news that forgiveness of sins no longer occurred in the temple with animal sacrifices, but rather through faith in Jesus.

As long as the Apostles’ message remained within God’s will, they could proclaim that someone’s sin had been forgiven based on their faith in Jesus and they had no need to seek forgiveness through temple sacrifices. On the other hand, they could also proclaim sins remained for any who sought forgiveness of sins in any other method but faith in Jesus.

I understand the teaching of RCC that forgiveness of sins was entrusted to the Apostles and then passed on through a hierarchy of cardinals, bishops, priests and finally dispensed to the common person.

I believe that is a misunderstanding of scripture.

peace to you

The Apostles were explicitly given the power to forgive sins in the Upper Room that Easter evening. To deny that is to deny the plain words of Scripture and the practice of the faith from that moment on.

Throughout salvation history, God has consistently sought to extract a confession from man. For example, in the beginning, we read "Who told you that you were naked?" Or, "Where is your brother Abel?" I could go on and on throughout the pages of Scripture. History culminates when God actually enters into his creation by becoming Man in the person of Jesus Christ. After His death and resurrection, on the evening of Easter, our Blessed Lord appeared to the Apostles and breathes on them. This is significant itself given it is only the second time in Scripture where God literally breathes onto man - the first being when He breathed life into Adam. When Jesus breathes on them, He imparts on them the Holy Ghost, and then gives them the authority to forgive sins. St. John records the event as follows...

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you.' When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.'” (John 20:19-23)

This is where the Christian practice of confession became a sacrament. In order for the Apostles (and their successors) to be able to forgive sins, they must first be told the sins. Hence confession, by definition, must be auricular. It has been this way from the beginning of the Church. We see this in practice in Acts when the Ephesians confess their sins to Paul in Acts 19:18. St. Paul tells the faithful at Corinth that he is charged with the "ministry of reconciliation." ( 2 Col 5:18) St. James instructs the faithful to make a confession (5:16) and St. John tells us if we confess our sins, they will be forgiven. (1 John 1:9)

Confession is practiced immediately from the Church's infancy, as testified to in the Scriptures and then in each subsequent century. (i.e. the Didache, St. Irenaeus, Origin, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St. Augustine, Leo the Great, etc. etc.)

 

[Walpole]

" And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" ( Luke 5:21 ).
No one can forgive sins but God alone.

...Said the scribes and Pharisees. I take it from your post you agree with them.

In St. Matthew's account of this same event, he adds an interesting statement of what would come...

Matthew 9:8 ---> Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men.

 

[Dave G]

I take it from your post you agree with them

Even the Jewish elders knew that no one but God could forgive sins, Walpole.

There is only one way that sins are forgiven...
Through the shed blood of Jesus Christ for those that believe on Him.

There is no other way that a man or woman may be justified in His sight, except God take mercy on that person and save them from His eternal wrath.
Any other way constitutes works, and the Lord is not a respecter of persons when it comes to what we do to gain His favor....
There is nothing we can do to gain His favor.

He has mercy upon whom He will have mercy ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).
It is not of him that wills, but of God that shows mercy.

Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He has saved those that truly believe on His Son ( Titus 3:5-7 ).
Men are justified by His grace, not by our works.
I'm sorry that you do not see that in your reading of God's word.

I wish you well, sir.

 

[canadyjd]

The Apostles were explicitly given the power to forgive sins in the Upper Room that Easter evening. To deny that is to deny the plain words of Scripture and the practice of the faith from that moment on.

Throughout salvation history, God has consistently sought to extract a confession from man. For example, in the beginning, we read "Who told you that you were naked?" Or, "Where is your brother Abel?" I could go on and on throughout the pages of Scripture. History culminates when God actually enters into his creation by becoming Man in the person of Jesus Christ. After His death and resurrection, on the evening of Easter, our Blessed Lord appeared to the Apostles and breathes on them. This is significant itself given it is only the second time in Scripture where God literally breathes onto man - the first being when He breathed life into Adam. When Jesus breathes on them, He imparts on them the Holy Ghost, and then gives them the authority to forgive sins. St. John records the event as follows...

"On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you.' When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.'” (John 20:19-23)

This is where the Christian practice of confession became a sacrament. In order for the Apostles (and their successors) to be able to forgive sins, they must first be told the sins. Hence confession, by definition, must be auricular. It has been this way from the beginning of the Church. We see this in practice in Acts when the Ephesians confess their sins to Paul in Acts 19:18. St. Paul tells the faithful at Corinth that he is charged with the "ministry of reconciliation." ( 2 Col 5:18) St. James instructs the faithful to make a confession (5:16) and St. John tells us if we confess our sins, they will be forgiven. (1 John 1:9)

Confession is practiced immediately from the Church's infancy, as testified to in the Scriptures and then in each subsequent century. (i.e. the Didache, St. Irenaeus, Origin, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Athanasius, St. Basil, St. Augustine, Leo the Great, etc. etc.)

Interesting. Off hand I know that 1John 1:9 says that He (God) will forgive your sins when confessed, not an apostle or priest.

I’ll study it more.

peace to you

 

[Walpole]

Interesting. Off hand I know that 1John 1:9 says that He (God) will forgive your sins when confessed, not an apostle or priest.

I’ll study it more.

peace to you

Did the Apostles have the authority to forgive sins that night?

 

[Walpole]

Even the Jewish elders knew that no one but God could forgive sins, Walpole.

The Jew and their elders did not believe that God could, would or should become man, Dave Gilbert.

There is only one way that sins are forgiven...
Through the shed blood of Jesus Christ for those that believe on Him.

Did the Apostles have the authority to forgive sins when Jesus breathed on them and told them they could in the Upper Room that Easter evening?

Yes or no?

There is no other way that a man or woman may be justified in His sight, except God take mercy on that person and save them from His eternal wrath.
Any other way constitutes works, and the Lord is not a respecter of persons when it comes to what we do to gain His favor....
There is nothing we can do to gain His favor.

He has mercy upon whom He will have mercy ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).
It is not of him that wills, but of God that shows mercy.

Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He has saved those that truly believe on His Son ( Titus 3:5-7 ).
Men are justified by His grace, not by our works.
I'm sorry that you do not see that in your reading of God's word.

I wish you well, sir.

Non-sequitur. (Red herring.)

 

[canadyjd]

Did the Apostles have the authority to forgive sins that night?

I have already answered that question. Jesus said He was sending them as the Father sent Him. So the question becomes, how did the Father send Jesus?

Everyone was Jewish. They had followed the Law that sins were forgiven by sacrificing animals. God the Father sent Jesus with the gospel (good news) that sins would be forgiven by faith in Jesus. Do you agree that is the message taught by Jesus?

If the Apostles are following the will of God then they can proclaim sins have been forgiven by faith in Jesus and proclaim that sins have not been forgiven if forgiveness is sought in any other way.

The major problem I have with your position is that opens the possibility that sins can be forgiven based on something other than faith in Jesus.

For instance, my understanding is the RCC has a long history of “selling” forgiveness. Perhaps you can verify if this is correct or not? In the year 2000, I read the RCC offered a “plenary indulgence” for $50,000. That is, for 50K, a person could have all sins, past, present, future, forgiven.

If sins are said to be forgiven on the basis of anything other than faith in Jesus, then the message is no longer the gospel that was given by Jesus.

Peace to you

 

[Adonia]

For instance, my understanding is the RCC has a long history of “selling” forgiveness. Perhaps you can verify if this is correct or not? In the year 2000, I read the RCC offered a “plenary indulgence” for $50,000. That is, for 50K, a person could have all sins, past, present, future, forgiven.

I just tried to find that on the net, nothing came up about it. So I would say your understanding is incorrect.

 

[Adonia]

I have already answered that question. Jesus said He was sending them as the Father sent Him. So the question becomes, how did the Father send Jesus?

Everyone was Jewish. They had followed the Law that sins were forgiven by sacrificing animals. God the Father sent Jesus with the gospel (good news) that sins would be forgiven by faith in Jesus. Do you agree that is the message taught by Jesus?

If the Apostles are following the will of God then they can proclaim sins have been forgiven by faith in Jesus and proclaim that sins have not been forgiven if forgiveness is sought in any other way.

The major problem I have with your position is that opens the possibility that sins can be forgiven based on something other than faith in Jesus.

For instance, my understanding is the RCC has a long history of “selling” forgiveness. Perhaps you can verify if this is correct or not? In the year 2000, I read the RCC offered a “plenary indulgence” for $50,000. That is, for 50K, a person could have all sins, past, present, future, forgiven.

If sins are said to be forgiven on the basis of anything other than faith in Jesus, then the message is no longer the gospel that was given by Jesus.

Peace to you

I believe the following is what a Catholic Priest says during the confession process.

"God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

So we see it is highly conditional with God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ, and that is how a priest forgives sins. There is also another thing that happens during confession which is beneficial and that is the interaction between the pentitent and the priest. Things that have happened in a persons life can be explained and worked through, questions can be asked and cousel given, so it is not only the forgiveness of sins that can be achieved. Sort of like you going to your Pastor for counseling.

 

[canadyjd]

I believe the following is what a Catholic Priest says during the confession process.

"God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of His Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

So we see it is highly conditional with God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ, and that is how a priest forgives sins. There is also another thing that happens during confession which is beneficial and that is the interaction between the pentitent and the priest. Things that have happened in a persons life can be explained and worked through, questions can be asked and cousel given, so it is not only the forgiveness of sins that can be achieved. Sort of like you going to your Pastor for counseling.

No problem with counseling. I disagree that any man has the authority to forgive sins. Jesus is the only High Priest and He forgives sins.

I will continue to study this issue.

peace to you

 

[Walpole]

I have already answered that question. Jesus said He was sending them as the Father sent Him. So the question becomes, how did the Father send Jesus?

You are being ambiguous. The question can be answered with a "yes" or a "no."

Did the Apostles have the authority to forgive sins the moment Jesus said they did?

Everyone was Jewish. They had followed the Law that sins were forgiven by sacrificing animals. God the Father sent Jesus with the gospel (good news) that sins would be forgiven by faith in Jesus. Do you agree that is the message taught by Jesus?

Yes, of course.

If the Apostles are following the will of God then they can proclaim sins have been forgiven by faith in Jesus and proclaim that sins have not been forgiven if forgiveness is sought in any other way.

That's not what Jesus said in the Upper Room Easter evening.

The major problem I have with your position is that opens the possibility that sins can be forgiven based on something other than faith in Jesus.

How so?

Recall the sacraments are efficacious ONLY because of Jesus.

For instance, my understanding is the RCC has a long history of “selling” forgiveness. Perhaps you can verify if this is correct or not? In the year 2000, I read the RCC offered a “plenary indulgence” for $50,000. That is, for 50K, a person could have all sins, past, present, future, forgiven.

If sins are said to be forgiven on the basis of anything other than faith in Jesus, then the message is no longer the gospel that was given by Jesus.

Peace to you

That is absolutely incorrect. You are conflating indulgences (which has to do with the temporal punishment for sin) with forgiveness. It is ontologically impossible to sell forgiveness of sins. Confessing our sins removes sin, but not necessarily the temporal punishment resulting from that sin. The old example is the child playing baseball in the backyard. He throws a ball through the neighbor's window. The neighbor forgives the child, but there is still a broken window that needs repair. In other words, the punishment due does not disappear. An indulgence is the remission of the temporal punishment due to sins whose culpable element has already been taken away. For example, the neighbor may say, "Cut my grass for two weeks and don't worry about the window." Justice is rendered and the punishment is satisfied. This, in effect, is what an indulgence is.