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Faith of our Fathers

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by asterisktom, Mar 25, 2020.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    "The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity...." - Rev. Doctor Bird Wilson, 1831.

    This counters the contrary claim that early American presidents were such great Christians.

    What may be in doubt would be George Washington, but a more careful study of his life and writings - not that of Parson Weems - I think would still most likely not give evidence that he was a Christian. Another possible question would be Adams who, admittedly a Unitarian, for a while believed in the Trinity.

    I am not saying that their unbelief was a good thing, just that we should always stick with the truth, however undesirable. We do not need to continue lying about our collective past to bolster our present Christianity. What they believed or disbelieved does not take away from their other achievements.
     
    #1 asterisktom, Mar 25, 2020
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  2. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Deism and enlightenment thinking went hand in hand, unfortunately. And add Unitarianism to the mix.

    I do think it's tricky, as we have to look at the entire written record of these men, and sometimes we read to much into what may be passing dalliances with unorthodox thought, while they settled in to orthodoxy in their later years.
     
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  3. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    The young George Washington was an Anglican, but later became an Episcopalian. He bought Martha a Bible in 1789.
    While he was a member of the Freemasons, their beliefs & practices have changed greatly since then.

    In all likelihood, given the amount of praise he gave to God after the revolution, he was likely a Christian.
     
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  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Anglicans are Episcopalians.
     
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would probably been much more biblical and conservative back then!
     
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  7. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    According to the link below, it's fake news of a sort for sure. The named source is incorrect, as you suspected.

    Read Mr. Kabala's comment very carefully. We have corrected an error that most historians list in the primary sources. It was not Bird Wilson but James Renwick Willson and you may read his sermon here.

    http://www.covenanter.org/JRWillson/princemessiah.htm
    The Jon Rowe Archives

     
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  8. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Not fake news. The main issue here is the faith of the founders, not which Wilson it was who gave that sermon.
     
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Once again, this is not fake news. Merely deflection from the main point.
     
  10. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Just curious, have you read any biographies of George Washington and his extensive writings? I have. I made it my priority since I was teaching American History at the time. Before I had done the research I pretty much believed as you do now.

    And by research I mean from a broad spectrum of sources, not just from the modern conservatives.
     
    #10 asterisktom, Mar 29, 2020
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  11. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I have spent a fair amount of time in Washington's letters and ledgers, since a forebear was a neighbor and elected to the House of Burgesses together with Washington from Fairfax County.
     
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  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    His letters especially make for interesting reading. Often the real person comes through in more private communication. He had an interesting and remarkable life. Exemplary in many ways, so people like Parson Weems had no right to make up things out of whole cloth.
     
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  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    I believe God intended to make the USA great, whether our Presidents were Christians or not. After all, He made several ancient pagan nations great. often using them to punish Israel & judah.
     
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  14. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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  15. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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  16. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    The source can make a considerable difference for those who go by authority, not to mention the personal proximity being claimed in the telling, which was considerably closer than reality in this case.

    The main issue is the real aim of the debate, which for secularists and atheists is not to ID deists, but to completely sever the nation's ties to biblical morality and teaching. I won't quibble over the standing of a Founder before God, it wouldn't be my place to judge. But I doubt any side with the immorality of those raising the issue.
     
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  17. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    My wife and I both agree that this is very unclear. I assume from the last sentence that I am immoral for raising the issue. Our current ties to biblical teaching is my concern, hence the importance of this closer look at the pseudo-hagiographical leaven in our early American histories. Making saints where there are none or few only lowers Christianity, does not elevate America.
     
  18. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Apologies. No, I'm not accusing you of immorality, much less peddling or pushing it, nor of atheism or secularism, nor even of raising the issue. The issue was raised quite some time ago.

    I dropped the Christianity bit because I consider that a distraction from the real issue, namely the standard of morality in society. What was the approach of the Founding Fathers? We must look to the laws they wrote, the decisions they handed down, the standards they went by, the arguments they made. What were their practices? What were their models? What were their assumptions, their axioms?
     
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  19. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Thank you for clarifying. Yes, I agree.
     
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  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Unfortunately, one principle that many of our "founding fathers" followed, and many current "leaders' still do is, "Do as I SAY, not as I DO !"
     
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