A dichotomy of "divine natures"?

[JonC]

This topic is a twist on another.

In the thread Habakkuk I made what turned out to be an offensive comment.

The passage is Habakkuk calling out on God and appealing on God's nature that He does not condone sin.


This describes the nature of God - Father, Son, and Spirit. God does not condone sin, so we can rely on and appeal to the fact God is righteous and is working out everything for good, for His purposes and His purposes are righteous.

The my point on that thread was that Jesus IS God. The idea that Habakkuk’s appeal to God’s nature is not an appeal to Christ’s nature (that Jesus’ nature is not as righteous, as holy, as just) is heresy.

But this makes me consider that we seem to have developed the tradition that there is a dichotomy between the Father and the Son. I do not mean separate actions or "duties", but an actual difference in their natures.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

This topic is a twist on another.

In the thread Habakkuk I made what turned out to be an offensive comment.



The my point on that thread was that Jesus IS God. The idea that Habakkuk’s appeal to God’s nature is not an appeal to Christ’s nature (that Jesus’ nature is not as righteous, as holy, as just) is heresy.

But this makes me consider that we seem to have developed the tradition that there is a dichotomy between the Father and the Son. I do not mean separate actions or "duties", but an actual difference in their natures.

Are you saying that the Father has a human nature, or that the Son does not?

 

[percho]

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

From John 4:23&24 TR
καὶ γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ τοιούτους ζητεῖ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτόν, πνεῦμα ὁ θεός καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν

And for the Father such is seeking the ones worshiping him, Spirit the God, and the ones worshiping him in spirit and truth, must be worshiping.

They are both God but are they both of the same nature. One is the Word made flesh and the other is Spirit the God.

No?

 

[JonC]

Are you saying that the Father has a human nature, or that the Son does not?

No. I am saying that God (Father, Son, and Spirit) have a divine nature. We cannot read about the righteous and holiness of God in the Old Testament and say it applies not to the Son because Jesus is God.

 

[JonC]

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

From John 4:23&24 TR
καὶ γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ τοιούτους ζητεῖ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτόν, πνεῦμα ὁ θεός καὶ τοὺς προσκυνοῦντας αὐτὸν ἐν πνεύματι καὶ ἀληθείᾳ δεῖ προσκυνεῖν

And for the Father such is seeking the ones worshiping him, Spirit the God, and the ones worshiping him in spirit and truth, must be worshiping.

They are both God but are they both of the same nature. One is the Word made flesh and the other is Spirit the God.

No?

I agree.

My concern is that we have a tendency to look at the Father and the Son as if their natures (their divine natures) were different.

 

[AustinC]

Philippians 2:5-11 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Van]

Perhaps someone could define "human nature" and "divine nature?"

We all have "human" characteristic behaviors, seeking security, and comfort, but we are also said to have a "fallen nature" such that we are predisposed to sin when tempted by Satan, the World, or Fleshly desire. Jesus of course shared are "human" characteristic behaviors, but did not share in our "fallen nature."

OTOH, all three Persons of the Trinity share their "divine essence." But they have differing roles within the Trinity and thus have unique divine characteristics.

 

[AustinC]

Hebrews 1:1-4 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

 

[Van]

Hebrews 1:1-4 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Thanks for the excellent and germane citation!

Just two minor comments:
1) "Exact imprint" refers to an engraving or imprint by which something is recognized and known, like our present day "trademark." This highlights that the Son is not just a messenger or spokesperson, but carries the mark of God Himself.

2) "His nature"refers to what "under-girds" or defines God, His divine essence.

 

[Yeshua1]

This topic is a twist on another.

In the thread Habakkuk I made what turned out to be an offensive comment.



The my point on that thread was that Jesus IS God. The idea that Habakkuk’s appeal to God’s nature is not an appeal to Christ’s nature (that Jesus’ nature is not as righteous, as holy, as just) is heresy.

But this makes me consider that we seem to have developed the tradition that there is a dichotomy between the Father and the Son. I do not mean separate actions or "duties", but an actual difference in their natures.

The father and the Holy Spirit have nature of God only, while Jesus has that and Human one also!

 

[Yeshua1]

No. I am saying that God (Father, Son, and Spirit) have a divine nature. We cannot read about the righteous and holiness of God in the Old Testament and say it applies not to the Son because Jesus is God.

I agree.

My concern was peaked in another thread with Martin Marprelate's objection to attributing to Christ the righteousness Habakkuk attributes to God.

Jesus is just as righteous as God the Father, but while upon His Cross, He assumed and bore our sins, so as sin bearer at that moment in time was as if He was sin incarnate!

 

[Yeshua1]

Perhaps someone could define "human nature" and "divine nature?"

We all have "human" characteristic behaviors, seeking security, and comfort, but we are also said to have a "fallen nature" such that we are predisposed to sin when tempted by Satan, the World, or Fleshly desire. Jesus of course shared are "human" characteristic behaviors, but did not share in our "fallen nature."

OTOH, all three Persons of the Trinity share their "divine essence." But they have differing roles within the Trinity and thus have unique divine characteristics.

We all have fallen sin natures, while Jesus did not, as he bypassed the effects of the fall by Virgin Birth!

 

[JonC]

Jesus is just as righteous as God the Father, but while upon His Cross, He assumed and bore our sins, so as sin bearer at that moment in time was as if He was sin incarnate!

Do you believe that Habakkuk's description of God not looking on sin applies to Christ's nature as well, or does Christ fall short of this righteousness?

 

[JonC]

We all have fallen sin natures, while Jesus did not, as he bypassed the effects of the fall by Virgin Birth!

I disagree because I believe sin to be a spiritual,not a biological, issue. I believe Scripture teaches this in 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe that Habakkuk's description of God not looking on sin applies to Christ's nature as well, or does Christ fall short of this righteousness?

I believe that while Jesus was always God Incarnate, while he was doing the atonement , became sin bearer and the father forsake Him as was at that time the great sin bearer!

 

[Yeshua1]

I disagree because I believe sin to be a spiritual,not a biological, issue. I believe Scripture teaches this in 1 Corinthians 15.

All of us was corrupted by the Fall, and so were all spiritual dead unto God when born!

 

[JonC]

All of us was corrupted by the Fall, and so were all spiritual dead unto God when born!

I never said that we were not spiritually dead when we were born.

Look, brother, you need to slow down a bit and think about what or how you are posting. Sometimes you make statements that are not in the Bible and claim otherwise. Other times you realize this and note that we all believe our understanding to be correct (an undisputed and obvious fact). Sometimes, like now, you avoid the topic all together and just toss out someting.

I am not going to respond to you for awhile so that you can work through this.

I am not saying you are wrong in what you believe, although I believe you are. I am saying that what you believe is only partially in the bible and you need to come to terms and be able to defend the part that is not.

We can continue this discussion at a later date, hopefully in a more meaningful way.

 

[Yeshua1]

I never said that we were not spiritually dead when we were born.

Look, brother, you need to slow down a bit and think about what or how you are posting. Sometimes you make statements that are not in the Bible and claim otherwise. Other times you realize this and note that we all believe our understanding to be correct (an undisputed and obvious fact). Sometimes, like now, you avoid the topic all together and just toss out someting.

I am not going to respond to you for awhile so that you can work through this.

I am not saying you are wrong in what you believe, although I believe you are. I am saying that what you believe is only partially in the bible and you need to come to terms and be able to defend the part that is not.

We can continue this discussion at a later date, hopefully in a more meaningful way.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus was not corrupted and affected by the Fall, as we all were!

 

[Van]

We all have fallen sin natures, while Jesus did not, as he bypassed the effects of the fall by Virgin Birth!

Yet another false doctrine by the proponent of false doctrine.
How was Eve corrupted? By birth? Or was she corrupted as a consequence of the Fall?
What prophecy did Christ's virgin birth fulfill?

 

[37818]

Yet another false doctrine by the proponent of false doctrine.
How was Eve corrupted? By birth? Or was she corrupted as a consequence of the Fall?
What prophecy did Christ's virgin birth fulfill?

His human nature was solely a change He took on in His incarnation. And what was a change was as to how He as another Person was "with the God." That He "was God" never changes.