Habakkuk

[agedman]

In a different thread Habakkuk 1 was offered as proof that God cannot look upon sin being taken upon by the Son.

Such is foolishness and far beneath proper understanding.

I place in this thread for all to see that even Habakkuk does admit God certainly looks upon the sin and sinner, far more the beloved Son.

12Are you not from everlasting,
O LORD my God, my Holy One?
We shall not die.
O LORD, you have ordained them as a judgment,
and you, O Rock, have established them for reproof.
13You who are of purer eyes than to see evil
and cannot look at wrong,
why do you idly look at traitors
and remain silent when the wicked swallows up
the man more righteous than he?
​

This is not a statement, it is a question!!! It is not God’s statement, but the prophet plea.
The fact is God does certainly look upon the sinner. The Scripture pages are full of such interactions.

Look at the authority of God Habakkuk acknowledges in this next portion.

14You make mankind like the fish of the sea,
like crawling things that have no ruler.
15He brings all of them up with a hook;
he drags them out with his net;
he gathers them in his dragnet;
so he rejoices and is glad.
16Therefore he sacrifices to his net
and makes offerings to his dragnet;
for by them he lives in luxury,
and his food is rich.
17Is he then to keep on emptying his net
and mercilessly killing nations forever?

​

 

[AustinC]

What are you trying to say? I have read your post 3 times and I cannot figure out what you are actually asserting.
Are you wishing to exegete Habakkuk? I find Habakkuk to be a profound book. It is worthy of deep study. But, I cannot figure out what, exactly, you are saying.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

13You who are of purer eyes than to see evil
and cannot look at wrong,
why do you idly look at traitors
and remain silent when the wicked swallows up
the man more righteous than he?
This is not a statement, it is a question!!! It is not God’s statement, but the prophet plea

Well, sort of yes, but actually no.
In the light of the fact that God is of purer eyes than to look upon evil [with equanimity), how can He put up with the wickedness going on in Judah?
The answer, given in verses 5-11, is that God is not going to put up with it and is busy raising up the Chaldeans

 

[JonC]

The passage is Habakkuk calling out on God and appealing on God's nature that He does not condone sin.

This describes the nature of God - Father, Son, and Spirit. God does not condone sin, so we can rely on and appeal to the fact God is righteous and is working out everything for good, for His purposes and His purposes are righteous.

 

[JonC]

In a different thread Habakkuk 1 was offered as proof that God cannot look upon sin being taken upon by the Son.

Such is foolishness and far beneath proper understanding.

I place in this thread for all to see that even Habakkuk does admit God certainly looks upon the sin and sinner, far more the beloved Son.

12Are you not from everlasting,
O LORD my God, my Holy One?
We shall not die.
O LORD, you have ordained them as a judgment,
and you, O Rock, have established them for reproof.
13You who are of purer eyes than to see evil
and cannot look at wrong,
why do you idly look at traitors
and remain silent when the wicked swallows up
the man more righteous than he?
​

This is not a statement, it is a question!!! It is not God’s statement, but the prophet plea.
The fact is God does certainly look upon the sinner. The Scripture pages are full of such interactions.

Look at the authority of God Habakkuk acknowledges in this next portion.

14You make mankind like the fish of the sea,
like crawling things that have no ruler.
15He brings all of them up with a hook;
he drags them out with his net;
he gathers them in his dragnet;
so he rejoices and is glad.
16Therefore he sacrifices to his net
and makes offerings to his dragnet;
for by them he lives in luxury,
and his food is rich.
17Is he then to keep on emptying his net
and mercilessly killing nations forever?

​

Have you considered the parallels of Habakkuk to Psalm 22?

They are almost identical in the sense that Habakkuk is crying out for God (who hears) asking "how long will I cry for help and you not hear". We see the same in Psalm 22. Likewise, Habakkuk appeals to the righteousness of God, to God's very nature. If God is God then God does not condone evil because it is not in His nature (for God to condone evil would be for God to cease being God). In the Psalm we see the same theme (actually, in all of Scripture we see the same theme).

 

[percho]

Does the darkness over the land from the 6th to the 9th hour when Jesus quoted My God, My God have anything to do with God relative to the darkness of sin?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Does the darkness over the land from the 6th to the 9th hour when Jesus quoted My God, My God have anything to do with God relative to the darkness of sin?

I'm quite sure it does.
Psalms 22:2 says, 'O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; and in the night season, and am not silent.'
It's not clear to me whether the Lord Jesus was making propitiation for the sins of His people for the whole six hours when He was on the cross, or just for the three hours of darkness. But I think it's clear that the darkness has special reference for the Lord Jesus as the sin-bearer. He declared, 'I am counted with those who go down to the pit............You have laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness,in the depths. Your wrath lies heavy upon me' (Psalms 88:4, 6-7). The way of the wicked is described as darkness (Proverbs 4:19) and darkness is the reward of the wicked (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 13). The darkness over Golgotha symbolized the absence of the felt presence of God from that place until propitiation had been accomplished..

 

[JonC]

I'm quite sure it does.
Psalms 22:2 says, 'O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; and in the night season, and am not silent.'
It's not clear to me whether the Lord Jesus was making propitiation for the sins of His people for the whole six hours when He was on the cross, or just for the three hours of darkness. But I think it's clear that the darkness has special reference for the Lord Jesus as the sin-bearer. He declared, 'I am counted with those who go down to the pit............You have laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness,in the depths. Your wrath lies heavy upon me' (Psalms 88:4, 6-7). The way of the wicked is described as darkness (Proverbs 4:19) and darkness is the reward of the wicked (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 13). The darkness over Golgotha symbolized the absence of the felt presence of God from that place until propitiation had been accomplished..

Given the topic (Habakkuk), would you agree that he is appealing to the nature of God - which is a holiness possessed by the Father, Son, and Spirit?

 

[percho]

I'm quite sure it does.
Psalms 22:2 says, 'O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear; and in the night season, and am not silent.'
It's not clear to me whether the Lord Jesus was making propitiation for the sins of His people for the whole six hours when He was on the cross, or just for the three hours of darkness. But I think it's clear that the darkness has special reference for the Lord Jesus as the sin-bearer. He declared, 'I am counted with those who go down to the pit............You have laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness,in the depths. Your wrath lies heavy upon me' (Psalms 88:4, 6-7). The way of the wicked is described as darkness (Proverbs 4:19) and darkness is the reward of the wicked (2 Peter 2:17; Jude 13). The darkness over Golgotha symbolized the absence of the felt presence of God from that place until propitiation had been accomplished..

I agree with you. Where we differ I think is, I believe that darkness of sin resulted in the darkness of death and the soul of the Son being forsaken extended unto Hades for three days and three nights, yet because of the learned obedience unto death even the death of the cross, the Son was washed in regeneration, Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, (by raising him from the dead) and gave to him a name that is above every name, <see Heb 1:3,4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? & Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

I would like to explain from scripture why I say the Son was washed in regeneration.

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,

Our sins were laid upon him and he died for our sins. Lev 17:11 Darby for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. from Isa 53:12 because he hath poured out his soul unto death,

Now my question is would our sins be washed away in his blood id he had not been raised from the dead, if Jesus had not been the first-born out of the dead ones?

The answer is no. Here is the scripture that says so, 1 Cor 15:17,18 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish;

His blood would not have wash away our sins without being made alive from the dead.

Romans 5:10 says the same thing.For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[AustinC]

When Habakkuk says God can not look at wrong, Habakkuk is not speaking literally. He is speaking poetically.
This entire chapter is a dialogue between Habakkuk and God as Habakkuk cries out for justice and wonders why God seems to not care. God tells Habakkuk how He has ordained his justice be meted out and it shocks Habakkuk to the core. Habakkuk cannot understand how a Holy God can create such vessels of wrath and wickedness to bring about His judgment on Judah. God is bringing an evil that is even worse than Judah as the means by which Judah is judged.
How, Habakkuk wonders, can this God of Holiness ordain and raise up such a wicked nation as the Chaldeans to execute His judgment on Israel?
So, Habakkuk is not saying God is incapable of seeing evil. If that were so, much of what God says before verse 13 could not have been seen by God. God could never have seen Satan's evil or Adam's rebellion. God would be weak.
This cannot be. God is almighty. He see's sin in all its filthiness and this chapter shows it.
What Habakkuk cannot understand is why God seems to ignore it rather than destroy it.

Habakkuk 1:2-17 O Lord, how long shall I cry for help, and you will not hear? Or cry to you “Violence!” and you will not save? Why do you make me see iniquity, and why do you idly look at wrong? Destruction and violence are before me; strife and contention arise. So the law is paralyzed, and justice never goes forth. For the wicked surround the righteous; so justice goes forth perverted. “Look among the nations, and see; wonder and be astounded. For I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if told. For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own. They are dreaded and fearsome; their justice and dignity go forth from themselves. Their horses are swifter than leopards, more fierce than the evening wolves; their horsemen press proudly on. Their horsemen come from afar; they fly like an eagle swift to devour. They all come for violence, all their faces forward. They gather captives like sand. At kings they scoff, and at rulers they laugh. They laugh at every fortress, for they pile up earth and take it. Then they sweep by like the wind and go on, guilty men, whose own might is their god!” Are you not from everlasting, O Lord my God, my Holy One? We shall not die. O Lord, you have ordained them as a judgment, and you, O Rock, have established them for reproof. You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he? You make mankind like the fish of the sea, like crawling things that have no ruler. He brings all of them up with a hook; he drags them out with his net; he gathers them in his dragnet; so he rejoices and is glad. Therefore he sacrifices to his net and makes offerings to his dragnet; for by them he lives in luxury, and his food is rich. Is he then to keep on emptying his net and mercilessly killing nations forever?

 

[AustinC]

In Habakkuk 2 we have God's response to Habakkuk's inquiry.

Habakkuk 2:1-20 I will take my stand at my watchpost and station myself on the tower, and look out to see what he will say to me, and what I will answer concerning my complaint. And the Lord answered me: “Write the vision; make it plain on tablets, so he may run who reads it. For still the vision awaits its appointed time; it hastens to the end—it will not lie. If it seems slow, wait for it; it will surely come; it will not delay. “Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith. “Moreover, wine is a traitor, an arrogant man who is never at rest. His greed is as wide as Sheol; like death he has never enough. He gathers for himself all nations and collects as his own all peoples.” Shall not all these take up their taunt against him, with scoffing and riddles for him, and say, “Woe to him who heaps up what is not his own— for how long?— and loads himself with pledges!” Will not your debtors suddenly arise, and those awake who will make you tremble? Then you will be spoil for them. Because you have plundered many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall plunder you, for the blood of man and violence to the earth, to cities and all who dwell in them. “Woe to him who gets evil gain for his house, to set his nest on high, to be safe from the reach of harm! You have devised shame for your house by cutting off many peoples; you have forfeited your life. For the stone will cry out from the wall, and the beam from the woodwork respond. “Woe to him who builds a town with blood and founds a city on iniquity! Behold, is it not from the Lord of hosts that peoples labor merely for fire, and nations weary themselves for nothing? For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. “Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink— you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness! You will have your fill of shame instead of glory. Drink, yourself, and show your uncircumcision! The cup in the Lord’s right hand will come around to you, and utter shame will come upon your glory! The violence done to Lebanon will overwhelm you, as will the destruction of the beasts that terrified them, for the blood of man and violence to the earth, to cities and all who dwell in them. “What profit is an idol when its maker has shaped it, a metal image, a teacher of lies? For its maker trusts in his own creation when he makes speechless idols! Woe to him who says to a wooden thing, Awake; to a silent stone, Arise! Can this teach? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in it. But the Lord is in his holy temple; let all the earth keep silence before him.”

 

[AustinC]

Habakkuk ends with a worship song expressing his comprehension of what God is doing. His song is beautiful in its grasp of God's glorious Sovereignty in all things.

Habakkuk 3:1-19 A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet, according to Shigionoth. O Lord, I have heard the report of you, and your work, O Lord, do I fear. In the midst of the years revive it; in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember mercy. God came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah His splendor covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. His brightness was like the light; rays flashed from his hand; and there he veiled his power. Before him went pestilence, and plague followed at his heels. He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low. His were the everlasting ways. I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction; the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble. Was your wrath against the rivers, O Lord? Was your anger against the rivers, or your indignation against the sea, when you rode on your horses, on your chariot of salvation? You stripped the sheath from your bow, calling for many arrows. Selah You split the earth with rivers. The mountains saw you and writhed; the raging waters swept on; the deep gave forth its voice; it lifted its hands on high. The sun and moon stood still in their place at the light of your arrows as they sped, at the flash of your glittering spear. You marched through the earth in fury; you threshed the nations in anger. You went out for the salvation of your people, for the salvation of your anointed. You crushed the head of the house of the wicked, laying him bare from thigh to neck. Selah You pierced with his own arrows the heads of his warriors, who came like a whirlwind to scatter me, rejoicing as if to devour the poor in secret. You trampled the sea with your horses, the surging of mighty waters. I hear, and my body trembles; my lips quiver at the sound; rottenness enters into my bones; my legs tremble beneath me. Yet I will quietly wait for the day of trouble to come upon people who invade us. Though the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines, the produce of the olive fail and the fields yield no food, the flock be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the Lord; I will take joy in the God of my salvation. God, the Lord, is my strength; he makes my feet like the deer’s; he makes me tread on my high places.

 

[JonC]

Habakkuk ends with a worship song expressing his comprehension of what God is doing. His song is beautiful in its grasp of God's glorious Sovereignty in all things.

Habakkuk 3:1-19 A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet, according to Shigionoth. O Lord, I have heard the report of you, and your work, O Lord, do I fear. In the midst of the years revive it; in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember mercy. God came from Teman, and the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah His splendor covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. His brightness was like the light; rays flashed from his hand; and there he veiled his power. Before him went pestilence, and plague followed at his heels. He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low. His were the everlasting ways. I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction; the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble. Was your wrath against the rivers, O Lord? Was your anger against the rivers, or your indignation against the sea, when you rode on your horses, on your chariot of salvation? You stripped the sheath from your bow, calling for many arrows. Selah You split the earth with rivers. The mountains saw you and writhed; the raging waters swept on; the deep gave forth its voice; it lifted its hands on high. The sun and moon stood still in their place at the light of your arrows as they sped, at the flash of your glittering spear. You marched through the earth in fury; you threshed the nations in anger. You went out for the salvation of your people, for the salvation of your anointed. You crushed the head of the house of the wicked, laying him bare from thigh to neck. Selah You pierced with his own arrows the heads of his warriors, who came like a whirlwind to scatter me, rejoicing as if to devour the poor in secret. You trampled the sea with your horses, the surging of mighty waters. I hear, and my body trembles; my lips quiver at the sound; rottenness enters into my bones; my legs tremble beneath me. Yet I will quietly wait for the day of trouble to come upon people who invade us. Though the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines, the produce of the olive fail and the fields yield no food, the flock be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the Lord; I will take joy in the God of my salvation. God, the Lord, is my strength; he makes my feet like the deer’s; he makes me tread on my high places.

Wonderful posts (your past 3).

The message of Habakkuk is missed when we try to take one verse to support an idea (even if the idea is correct, Habakkuk wrote for a reason).

This expresses a common theme throughout Scripture.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

When Habakkuk says God can not look at wrong, Habakkuk is not speaking literally. He is speaking poetically.
This entire chapter is a dialogue between Habakkuk and God as Habakkuk cries out for justice and wonders why God seems to not care. God tells Habakkuk how He has ordained his justice be meted out and it shocks Habakkuk to the core. Habakkuk cannot understand how a Holy God can create such vessels of wrath and wickedness to bring about His judgment on Judah. God is bringing an evil that is even worse than Judah as the means by which Judah is judged.
How, Habakkuk wonders, can this God of Holiness ordain and raise up such a wicked nation as the Chaldeans to execute His judgment on Israel?
So, Habakkuk is not saying God is incapable of seeing evil. If that were so, much of what God says before verse 13 could not have been seen by God. God could never have seen Satan's evil or Adam's rebellion. God would be weak.
This cannot be. God is almighty. He see's sin in all its filthiness and this chapter shows it.
What Habakkuk cannot understand is why God seems to ignore it rather than destroy it.

Yep! Good study. Obviously (see my post #3) God is not literally unable to see evil. If He were He would not be God. Yet the verse means something. It means that God cannot look upon sin and wickedness with complaisance or equanimity.

We are told in the Bible that there are indeed certain things that God cannot do. He cannot, for example, lie (Titus 1:2). Nor, according to 2 Timothy 2:13, can He deny Himself. He is an utterly holy God, and His anger against sin and those who commit it is both righteous and constant (Psalms 7:11). He will and must (to be true to Himself) bring judgement on those who commit sin. This judgement certainly includes eternal separation from God (e.g. Luke 13:27; 2 Thessalonians 1:9).

But how can God be holy and righteous and yet pardon guilty sinners? Way back in the 4th Century, Athanasius, in his book On the Incarnation,supposed that this placed God in something of a dilemma, solved by the sacrifice of Himself in the place of guilty sinners to pay the penalty due in full.

 

[thomas15]

I have some friends that often insist that there is but one peoples of God, from Adam to this day. They are quite certain that I'm in error as a dispensationalist that Jehovah will some day restore the Jews and place them in the Holy Land, that Christ will rule for a 1000 years. Their main argument is that the promises made to Abraham have been given to the church due to disobedience.

I take Habakkuk ch 1 as an indication that God has all things under control and will bring judgement on those in disobedience. That includes the modern church which is in my opinion is skating on thin ice. Like the prophet I see violence and strife everywhere.

One of my general contentions is the church is no better than OT Israel when it comes to obedience. We hide behind a complex wall of theology instead of proclaiming the simplicity of the Gospel to the unsaved and are not doing well with respect to how we conduct our personal business. I'm not throwing rocks at any in particular and will confess that I'm part of the problem.

But to the point of the matter Habakkuk speaks with clarity even to this day. Sin is sin and grace is grace. I like that the prophet boldly takes his case to God. And I really appreciate that God will take the time to listen to puny man and offer such a conversation.

 

[Covenanter]

JonC - you are referring to Martin but without quoting anything Martin has said - only making statements about Martin without foundation in this thread. You need reporting to another moderator.

Jon, it's the sort of argument that goes along the lines -
"You belief THAT - you therefore believe what follows according to MY logic. Therefore you are a heretic."

We need to listen to what others SAY, not what WE HEAR, with our prejudiced hearing.

 

[Iconoclast]

Martin M

Now if you will look at the Moderators' thread Please refrain from personal attacks in the public forum you will see these words: WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PUBLICLY ATTACK THE CHARACTER, PERSONHOOD OR MOTIVES OF ANOTHER MEMBER. Now, if to call someone a heretic is not to attack his character, and to call him a weasel is not to attack his personhood, then words have no meaning. It will be claimed that I was not being called a heretic; it was just that my views that were being called heretical - as if there was a difference!

Yes...that is what it says.

Now if the Doctrine of Penal Substitution has been considered by the moderators and deemed to be heretical, then surely we ought to have been informed of this. Since we have not, it is totally unacceptable for one moderator to take it upon himself to declare a doctrine to be a heresy, that, whether one agrees with it or not, is entirely mainstream.

Yes..totally unacceptable.

So there we have it. I will not engage with JonC on this forum until I can be assured that he will conduct himself properly, so I suppose I will have to put up with gratuitous insults for the foreseeable future.

Yes...clearly a double standard. We have all seen this pattern!

I imagine that this post will be deleted quite quickly, as others of mine have been in the past, so I have made a copy of it and anyone wanting one can PM me.

That has been the pattern for a few years now. Excuses are given to "perform such actions" in an attempt to silence those holding more biblical positions. Then it is followed by some sanctimonious explanation, oh yes we have seen this quite often Martin.

 

[Iconoclast]

Would it kill you, JonC, to apologize? There are many here who have addressed you. You have banned them for confronting you. My advice to you is to take some time off and evaluate your self.

Yes Particular,you are posting correctly and have a clear understanding of the problem that surfaces over and over again.
Many have left this place because of such twisting and false witness.
You have read it correctly.

 

[Iconoclast]

Covenanter,

JonC - you are referring to Martin but without quoting anything Martin has said - only making statements about Martin without foundation in this thread.

This is exactly his M.O. He invents things from his twisted perception, then presents it as fact, attempting to denigrate the person, mostly Calvinists.

You need reporting to another moderator.

Yes...this is true.

Jon, it's the sort of argument that goes along the lines -
"You belief THAT - you therefore believe what follows according to MY logic. Therefore you are a heretic."[/QUOTE]


There it is...

We need to listen to what others SAY, not what WE HEAR, with our prejudiced hearing.

That is what an honest poster would do!


Yes Covenantor, you also have a clear vision of this recurring problem.

 

[Yeshua1]

What are you trying to say? I have read your post 3 times and I cannot figure out what you are actually asserting.
Are you wishing to exegete Habakkuk? I find Habakkuk to be a profound book. It is worthy of deep study. But, I cannot figure out what, exactly, you are saying.

He seems to have issues with asserting wrath of God was upon Jesus at Cross, and that God forsook Him then!