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The inconsistency of ' Conditional salvation '

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020.

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  1. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    There's a few different views on ' conditional salvation. For some its wilfully sinning , or Apostosy , for others its ' stop believing ' , losing faith , walking away ect . For some its all leading to the same end . We hear different extremes. Some will say its through sinning others that its not sin but stopping believing.
    jesse morell for example will say ' everytime you sin , you lose salvation . ' so you have to confess every time .
    Some have there ideas about having to die in a state of grace . some have have it that we have to endure to the end to be saved . What is the Gosepl in light of this for those that hold to these ideas ? it seems like simplicity is complicated. Faith is changed to ' obedience' . . Believing has to be' exercised ' salvation is a ' process ' . Grace is a substance and Eternal life is a reward instead of a gift .
    The inconsistency comes from the ' collection ' of verses they want to hold to in support of their systematic . They want salvation to be undeserved but deserved . They want to say we cannot earn salvation but to earn it . They want hebrews 6 but be able to be saved over and over . They want salvation not to be earned , thats its free , but they want to be saved by their works also.This is a complicated Gospel for some , is it not ?
     
    #1 Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
  2. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    The most common of these is the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) although I know some don't consider them to be Christian.

    Not what he really preaches. Basically, he says that those that return to a life of sin lose their salvation - not the RCC model of having to confess each and every sin.

    Jesse Morrell uses 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

    You can ask the RCC folks and Jesse Morrell is relatively open if you're polite about it. I don't know much more than what I've read.

    State of grace means people need to have obtained God's grace before they die?

    I think most people believe this - even Calvinists. Very few believe in after death conversions.

    That's the P in TULIP as well as the opposing Arminian viewpoint.

    Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is a bit different. Those who believe in OSAS don't believe in perseverance but rather salvation regardless of actions. 1 Corinthians 1:5. OSAS is not a Calvinist nor an Arminian viewpoint.

    Once again, "salvation is a process" is a Calvinist and Arminian belief. Have you heard of the Golden Chain?

    Faith is obedience. If you truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God and you confess that he is LORD, you will obey him. Does that mean you are going to be perfect? No. But faith does mean obedience even if the obedience is not perfect.

    Except for Universalists, I don't know of any major Christian belief that disagrees with this.

    Are you talking about RCC and Eucharist?

    I know Jesse Morrel doesn't believe in systematic theology - So I guess you're talking about Presbyterians?

    I don't think you quite understand. Remember the story of the Prodigal Son? Would the prodigal son still be rewarded and taken care of by the father if he never returned? Did the prodigal son deserve the reward?

    Earning and accepting are two different things. See Prodigal son above.

    The infamous Hebrews 6:4-8. Some believe this passage refers to people who accept Jesus and then reject Jesus - they will go to Hell with no takebacks. Others believe this refers to those who were never Christians to begin with - Some like to call these the reprobate. RCC believes this is a reference to the Eucharist.

    I believe the text needs to be read in context - a letter to the Jews. Verses 4-5 refers to the Jews who were God's special people who were given the goodness of the Word and knowledge of the coming of Jesus. By rejecting Jesus, the Jews are unable to to return to repentance the way they have done before in the Old Testament.

    I thinks it seems complicated to you because you are mixing and matching many different theologies to oppose.
     
    #2 MartyF, Jul 12, 2020
  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    "While I was on the University of West Florida in Pensacola open air preaching, a student in the crowd said that God’s grace and forgiveness in Christ was literally a license to sin and that we can sin every day without fear of hell. I responded by saying, “You lose your salvation every time that you sin.” This is why you must repent every time that you sin.” ( Jessie morell)
     
    #3 Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020
  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    The topic is conditional salvation .
     
    #4 Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020
  5. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    remaining in a state of grace is a condition a believer has to remain in until death according to some .
     
    #5 Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020
  6. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    If you mean that Justification is a process then I would disagree .
     
    #6 Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020
  7. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    That was a question I asked. What do you mean by state of grace?

    Do you not believe that one needs God's grace to be saved?
     
    #7 MartyF, Jul 12, 2020
  8. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    The better quote from Jesse,

    "A sinner gains salvation through conversion, a believer retains salvation through perseverance, and a backslider regains salvation through repentance. But if a believer returns to his sins and does not repent and seek forgiveness, they remain in a condemned state under God."

    Now I believe in OSAS as I previously defined but I do believe in making sure that other viewpoints are properly represented.
     
    #8 MartyF, Jul 12, 2020
  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Thats the same as the quote he said . if you sin you lose salvation . You then repent and then salvation is back again .
     
    #9 Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020
  10. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Is this a one-man debate?
     
    #10 Wesley Briggman, Jul 12, 2020
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I believe we need the blood of Jesus applied. That is given by grace .
     
    #11 Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Jesse belivers a person retains salvation through not sinning ..If he sins he loses salvation..to get salvation back he needs to repent . Every sin needs forgivenness . He believes that you lose faith by sinning . This is a false Gospel .
     
    #12 Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020
  13. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Thats debatable lol
     
    #13 Barry Johnson, Jul 12, 2020
  14. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Jesse is teaching the wrong thing regarding this. I think his belief is a little more nuanced than that but maybe I am wrong. It does sound very RCC.
     
    #14 MartyF, Jul 12, 2020
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