Featured The Corruption of the Human Spirit

I agree. And that's Calvinism in a nutshell. Calvinism promotes the "golem" model. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.
Calvinism says God controls all at His direction, aka "ordination".

 

I appreciate that. But words have different meanings, depending on context, audience, application, and intent. Intent dies with the author, and application can be different based on circumstances, so we have to use context and audience to determine intent and application.

I'm not saying you've said anything wrong, but just throwing a passage at me and saying "here's the answer" is usually not enough. You need to explain why you think it's the answer--why and how.it applies to our conversation.

 

My friend I have answered you all questions BIBLICAL. Never take parts here and there makes your own assumptions. Go into the continent of the story and used it the same way in the future. If God says don't kill in the past you must teach today don't kill. Don't put nothing and don't take nothing.

 

Read Isaiah 45:9-12

 

Submissive? Hardly. God is no more in subjection to my decisions than He was to Adam's. God told them the penalty for eating the wrong tree, and He implemented that penalty. Does that Make God subject to man's decisions?

Another example. Is a father of a child submissive to the child if the child disobeys the father? No. The father can punish the child. Can the father keep the child from doing wrong? probably not without implementing severe restrictions on movement (jail cell, perhaps). Is the father sovereign over the child. Yes, he is.

On the other hand, if the father were to decide what the child was going to do before the child were born, or even conceived, and the father had the power to make it happen to the smallest detail of the child's actions and thoughts (Calvinistic sovereignty), that would remove any question about who was responsible for the child's behavior, and punishing the child would be abuse. That would be golemic.

That last scenario is what is described in the 1689 and the Westminster confessions.
1689:
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass
2. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

WCF:
CHAPTER 3 Of God's Eternal Decree
1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future

Yes, I agree that I am not in agreement with the confessions in this point, if that's what you mean by missing the mark.

 

Could I ask for a scriptural reference where the bible defines "spiritually dead"?

 

Paul says we were NOT physically alive before the rebirth, any more than we are physically alive AFTER the rebirth:
Romans 8:10 (KJV) And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
How can that be? It makes sense if the death is a forgone conclusion because of our sin (and Adam’s), even if not manifested by our bodies lying on the ground motionless.
Romans 8:13 (KJV) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ye SHALL live.

 

I’m impressed that you can actually cut and paste a WHOLE chapter into your response—and provide absolutely no commentary to explain WHY the chapter as a whole helps with your point. And Paul’s, apparently.

But I’m willing to hear it, if you’d like to post it.


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Which contention?

 

What is spirit?
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit;... Eccl.8:v.8. What is spirit? The Master said: the words that I speak unto you, they-the words-are spirit, and they are life, It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing-John 6:v.63. Did you understand what said the Master? See, the words that did sound out of the mouth of the LORD are Spirit and Life. By the way, we can discern the spirits that are within men by the sound of the words that they speak or come out of their mouth, or even when write them.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets -spirits of lie or of demons - are gone out into the world-1John 4:v.1. Do a comparison: John 3:v.34 - He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit-the Word- by measure unto him. God-the Word-is Spirit. The difference is great between the spirit that is from God and the spírit that is in the world. John 3:v.31- He that is of the earth is earthly(and even bestial, say I), and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

The Corruption of MAN by his own spirit
Now let us see: Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks- Matt.12:v.34. Terrible, terrible, terrible, it because out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies (among many other things,say I). What kind of words the spirit(s) of man sounds by his mouth when he planned to commit fornications, adulteries, to blaspheme, to kill or rob in accord his heart? that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man?
Jer.17:v.9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
James 3:v.5-8
5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6 And the tongue is a FIRE, A WORLD OF INIQUITY: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on FIRE the course of nature; and it is set on FIRE OF HELL.
7 For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Romans 3:v.12-18
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (their speech is mortal, say I)
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

James 3:v.1-4
My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4 Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.

James 4:v.4 - Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

The Word is God.

 

@AustinC : I'm not trying to be a jerk, here. I'm trying to determine which contention of mine you think Rom 8 addresses.

If it's the contention that we were physically dead already, I am in wholehearted agreement--we weren't. But the fact that Paul used the "death" of the body, while talking to people who had never died in the body, tells us that he was NOT talking about a current state, but a promise/threat of a future state--a foregone conclusion of bodily death.

And if that's the case, then Rom 8 is NOT just talking about the nebulously-defined concept of "spiritual death", if the body is somehow included. And I don't think I need the whole chapter to determine that, and neither does the whole chapter refute it, as far as I can tell.

 

Which "spirit" is @AustinC referring to? And once you answer that, can you answer Austin's question?

 

Could you transcribe his question and why he made it? What was your point that cause his question? I did not follow the discussion of you both.