Has the IFB went liberal?

[John of Japan]

exactly what is this liberalism in the sbc? describing the missionary baptist sound like the independent fundamentalist they have some strong preaching .they indoctrinated. no other denom can stand against them. i have a buddy who belongs to one.. . there pretty convinced they are right.. i want to know more about all this division. General baptist like to fuss and break up go else where

When I say "liberalism" I mean classical theological liberalism, not some idea that going to movies or drinking alcohol is liberal. The most common strain it takes in the SBC is the belief that the Bible had errors of history and science in the original manuscripts. A book by SBC theologian Harold Liindsell exposed all of that in 1976 with a whole chapter on the SBC, The Battle for the Bible. Having said that, there have been many other liberals in the SBC with even worse heresies: denying the virgin birth of Christ, denying that Christ is God, etc.

Even the conservative SBC missionaries I went to Japanese language school with were taught the "three B's" which were Barth, Brunner, and Bultmann, which were neo-orthodox theologians. If you are not familiar with that theology, it's a different kind of liberalism.

I have a friend who is a retired SBC seminary professor. He has told me about being mocked by the liberal professors for believing the Bible literally.

 

[Marooncat79]

Sat through liberal sermons

I was not a believer at that time. I remember thinking thats not what the Bible teaches at all

Jesus was not exalted in them

 

[John of Japan]

Sat through liberal sermons

I was not a believer at that time. I remember thinking thats not what the Bible teaches at all

Jesus was not exalted in them

One Northern Baptist liberal back in the day, Harry Emerson Fosdick, preached a famous sermon with the title, "The Peril of Worshiping Jesus." There were "pastors" just as liberal in the SBC back in the day.

 

[Yeshua1]

One Northern Baptist liberal back in the day, Harry Emerson Fosdick, preached a famous sermon with the title, "The Peril of Worshiping Jesus." There were "pastors" just as liberal in the SBC back in the day.

There were there back in time of the Apostles even!

 

[John of Japan]

There were there back in time of the Apostles even!

Such as any form of Gnostic Christianity.

 

[Yeshua1]

Such as any form of Gnostic Christianity.

Which we see full blown now into the Church under the so called Word of faith!

 

[Marooncat79]

This was in the early 1970s

1. Jesus never ever claimed to be God, not did the Disciples understand Him to be God

2. Outright denial of the Resurrection

 

[Marooncat79]

Heart breaking

 

[ezra2020]

I have a friend who is a retired SBC seminary professor. He has told me about being mocked by the liberal professors for believing the Bible literally.

i would like to read more on this please post more the few s.b ministers i listen to far as i know take the Bible literally David jeremiah charles stanley ( rather listen to him on the radio ) James merritt merrit was president of s.b i really like david jeremiah . like i said i was pastor at a southern baptist till i mentioned foot washing my mom side of the family are southern baptist , iIDF has some strong preachers but some turn off with the perfect theology. i will assure you if i mentioned i was general baptist i would get the look and cold shoulder . the doctrine on salvation does not bother me . its the holier than though attitude no drums no accompany music . they say it ungodly hmm yet they play a piano and guitar .

 

[John of Japan]

i would like to read more on this please post more.

Until what is called the "conservative resurgence" in the SBC, all of the seminaries had liberal profs, often in the majority. One goal of the reformers was to get the liberals out of the seminaries. They accomplished that by first electing a conservative president for the SBC. (I believe it was when Adrian Rogers was elected.) Then they used the leadership of the SBC to require seminary profs to sign the Baptist Faith and Message, and the liberals usually resigned. I've heard that the liberals who resigned at Southeastern BTS told the conservatives that SEBTS would not survive. Then they started their own liberal seminary which then barely survived, while SEBTS is now one of the largest in the world. My son got his PhD there.

 

[Salty]

... Then they started their own liberal seminary which then barely survived, while SEBTS is now one of the largest in the world. My son got his PhD there.

John - what cemetery did the liberals start?

​

 

[Rob_BW]

John - what cemetery did the liberals start?

​

Salty, I believe you may have the Freudian Slip of the year right there.

 

[Marooncat79]

John

You are correct about SEBTS

When Al Mohler was elected Prez at SBTS, he addressed the seminary and was later confronted, and told that he could not preach a sermon like that at Southern. His response was to immediately terminate the professor.

He then terminated a few more (4-5?) over a short period of time, and several resigned (included was Molly Marshall. There has been serious questions about her on several layers).

I think that the most defining moment was at one of the conventions when Dan Vestal held up the Bible and began trashing its accuracy just before the liberals broke away w the CBF

It took a while, but conservative Presidents elected conservative Boards who elected conservative lesser boards and changed the direction of the ship and seminaries although Southern had already turned

The fight for the past 25 yrs has been the Doctrines of Grace in SBC Life. SBCers are not taught that Calvinism is a major root in the founding of the convention and Tom Nettles book “By His Grace and For His Glory” in about 1987 created another firestorm

As is known, Paige Patterson has also been a lightening rod and dealt w appropriately although he seemingly mismanaged about $200M or somewhere thereabouts

The Document which supposedly controls a Professors Doctrinal Standards at SBTS is the Abstract of Principles. I think it may be used at others as well -I am almost sure of SEBTS

 

[John of Japan]

John - what cemetery did the liberals start?
​

I'm not real sure, but it would have been in the same city or area as Southeastern BTS.

 

[John of Japan]

John

You are correct about SEBTS

When Al Mohler was elected Prez at SBTS, he addressed the seminary and was later confronted, and told that he could not preach a sermon like that at Southern. His response was to immediately terminate the professor.

He then terminated a few more (4-5?) over a short period of time, and several resigned (included was Molly Marshall. There has been serious questions about her on several layers).

I think that the most defining moment was at one of the conventions when Dan Vestal held up the Bible and began trashing its accuracy just before the liberals broke away w the CBF

It took a while, but conservative Presidents elected conservative Boards who elected conservative lesser boards and changed the direction of the ship and seminaries although Southern had already turned

The fight for the past 25 yrs has been the Doctrines of Grace in SBC Life. SBCers are not taught that Calvinism is a major root in the founding of the convention and Tom Nettles book “By His Grace and For His Glory” in about 1987 created another firestorm

As is known, Paige Patterson has also been a lightening rod and dealt w appropriately although he seemingly mismanaged about $200M or somewhere thereabouts

The Document which supposedly controls a Professors Doctrinal Standards at SBTS is the Abstract of Principles. I think it may be used at others as well -I am almost sure of SEBTS

Thanks for this good information. I did not know about the Abstract of Principles.

From the little I've read, my opinion at this point is that Paige Patterson was railroaded. But then I have a soft spot in my heart for the Drs. Patterson. I had lunch with them when I was down there two years ago, and it was Mrs. Dr. P. who encouraged me to pursue a doctorate, though I am not pursuing it at Southwestern.

 

[Ziggy]

The breakaway seminary was Baptist Seminary in Richmond, founded around 1992, staffed by former Southeastern professors, meeting at the liberal Union Presbyterian seminary campus, and funded by the liberal SBC churches in Virginia (which group split from the conservative Baptists of Virginia).

The seminary only had about 60 students at most and finally went totally defunct a year or two ago.

 

[Ziggy]

I also recall at seminary the liberal mantra: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy Dodd with all thy Barth, and thy Niebuhr as thyself."

 

[Salty]

The breakaway seminary was Baptist Seminary in Richmond, founded around 1992, staffed by former Southeastern professors, meeting at the liberal Union Presbyterian seminary campus, and funded by the liberal SBC churches in Virginia (which group split from the conservative Baptists of Virginia).

The seminary only had about 60 students at most and finally went totally defunct a year or two ago.

Actually, didn't the conservatives in VA form the SBCV by splinting from the BGCVA

 

[Marooncat79]

The Abstract was the founding document in 1858; the 1st BFM was in 1925, so there is a pretty large gap there.

Prior to 1925, Churches used the 1689 (mostly)

 

[John of Japan]

The breakaway seminary was Baptist Seminary in Richmond, founded around 1992, staffed by former Southeastern professors, meeting at the liberal Union Presbyterian seminary campus, and funded by the liberal SBC churches in Virginia (which group split from the conservative Baptists of Virginia).

The seminary only had about 60 students at most and finally went totally defunct a year or two ago.

The website is still up, so I took a look at the FAQ about the closing (FAQs About BTSR’s Closing). The issue to them was, in a word, M-O-N-E-Y!! Seems to me like if you attract the students, the money will come, not "If you build it, they will come."