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Featured Calvinism and Context ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Sep 13, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul was heading up the ole lets go round up and kill off those pesky Christians, correct?
     
  2. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Nope . Clearly I meant Ezekiel 36 is ISRAEL . I've not said ,' nothing in the bible is for us .See even in discussion ,one statement I make about Ezekiel 36 being for ISRAEL therfore means all verses are for ISRAEL. ( Deductive method )
     
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Be honest, you also excluded Acts as "not for 2020".
    That same logic makes the Gospels for 1st Century Jews (the people Jesus was talking to) and Revelation for the Future.

    That leaves us splitting hairs over which parts of the letters are addressed to Jews and which are about Gentiles.
    ... That is not a game I want to play. (I'd rather go back to Nihilism).
     
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  4. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Do you see every verse applicable and directed at all times ? surely you see who the audience is and decide past , present, future on some passages? Acts is a good example because we see the transitions taking place through the historical narrative. Old to testament; Jews to Gentiles ; the beginning of the ' body ' of believers ( Jews +gentiles)
     
  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God commands believers to preach reconciliation. To tell rebellious humanity to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Every child of God teaches this truth.
    What is different is that you presuppose that preaching reconciliation means the cause is preaching and the effect is either willful reception or willful rejection.
    I see the cause as God's quickening through whatever means God chooses and the effect of God's quickening is belief.

    My position is taught in scripture. Your position is presupposed by your human reasoning.

    Since all the Apostles taught my position, one must ask where your view came from and where it went off the rails. May I suggest the political church at Rome, many years after the Apostles.
     
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Gospel message is good news to those whom God intended to get saved by its preaching, but bad news to the lost sinners who keep on rejecting Jesus willingly!
     
  7. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

    Verse 8 explains that Jesus died for sinners . So that's everyone without exception.

    Verse 9 explains that ' much more ' than Jesus dying for everyone's sins ( without exception ) after we believed we were justified by his blood and we will never fall under his wrath now ( through him )

    Verse 10 For if when we( Every sinner without exception) were enemies ,every one without exception was reconciled to God by the death of his Son . Much more because everyone without exception was reconciled they will be reconciled because of his life ( resurrection) . So if they believe the Gospel they will be saved by his life .

    Verse 11 explains that even though everyone without exception was reconciled by his death , to be saved by his life they need to recieve the atonement.

    2cor 5 .19
    17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20¶Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

    verse 18 explains that we as believers( because we believed )we are reconciled by his death AND his life . We have been committed to understand this correctly so we can tell this good news to others.

    Verse 19 Futher explains that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself NOT imputing everyones ( everyone without exception) trespasses against them . Jesus truly died and paid for the sins of the world ( everyone without exception)

    This all means that no one will be in hell ' paying for their own sins ' . They will be in hell because they refused to believe the truth so as to be saved .

    It means that we were not saved by the ' death of christ ' but by his life ( resurrection) . Of course it goes without saying that without his death we could not be saved . Therefore we needed the death ( justified by his blood ) burial and resurrection (much more saved by his life )

    No this isn't ' universalism ' Just because Jesus paid for all and everyone's sins ( including the sin of unbelief) no one can be saved without ( his life ) glorification. We received Jesus when we believed. John 1.12 . We recieved the atonement. because by faith we accessed the grace . Rom 5.2
    By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    Not only that . We are now predestined to future redemption of the body .
    23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    After we believed we were sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Eph 1.13-14 . Eph 4.30
    This means we cannot be lost or forfeit salvation. Eternal security rest on the promises of God . The guarantee of the Holy Spirit and God who ' predestines all believers to Guaranteed future glorification. Not before we were born ( to be saved ) but after we recieved the Holy Spirit.

    This is the message of reconciliation that the apostle Paul taught and I agree with him .
     
  8. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    You often take the time of actually presenting a counter-argument, unlike most Calvinists here who simply repeat a mantra with an exclamation point at the end. So your answers deserve full replies.

    "Jesus said He chose his Apostles and they did not choose Him, right?"
    Exactly, to be "apostles", not to be saved.

    "Jesus sought out the Samaritan woman at the well, she did not go looking for Him, right?"
    Although irrelevant, let's use that logic:
    A rich young man came running to Christ and kneeled before him asking what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? The rich young man sought Christ, Christ did not go looking for him, right?

    "Jesus crossed the lake to heal a demoniac in the Decapolis region and then immediately sailed back. Jesus sought the man, the man did not seek Jesus, right?"
    Chist passed by the two blind men but they cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord. Christ did not seek them, they sought him, right?

    In John 6, Jesus tells the grumblers to stop complaining because no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. So the Father draws people to Jesus, right?
    The next verse says And they shall be all taught of God. God draws [not drags] all men but only the ones who respond get actually drawn. The mere fact that God had sent them Christ to preach to them was the Father drawing them. The many are called but the few are chosen precisely because few yield to the drawing. Men can refuse the drawing of the Father: Hos 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them. Hos 11:5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, but the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.
    Today Christ draws all men (Jn.12:32) but as in Hosea, they refused to return to God.

    "Paul has his heart changed by Jesus on the road to Damascus, right?"
    A) It doesn't say that "his heart" was "changed by Jesus". You put that in.
    B) Paul could have rejected the Lord
    C) Paul's conversion is a prophetic figure of the conversion of a Jewish remnant during the tribulation who will be converted when Christ reveals himself to them as Joseph did unto his brethren the second time around, and they will weep when they look upon him, as Zechariah prophesied. That Paul's conversion was a figuratively premature event he himself testified when he described it as of one born out of due time (1Co.15:8).


    "In John 10 Jesus tells the unbelieving Jews that they are "not of My sheep" and that the Father gives the sheep to Him. So the Father gives believers to Jesus, right?"

    Literally the equivalent of you telling a Mormon (who claims to be a Christian but rejects Biblical revelations concerning Christ such as his deity, as the Pharisees were claiming to be true Jews) "you don't believe it because you're not actually a Christian to begin with". The sheep, when we take off our theologically coloured glasses, are whoever believes the scriptures.

    Lydia has her heart opened by God to respond to the words of Paul, right?
    Right. Because she was yielded and the story is the Gentile counterpart of the Jews who had hardened their hearts:
    Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes THEY have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Note that the Jews themselves had first closed their eyes and heart, and note that Lydia worshipped God and heard us BEFORE God opened her heart and even then it was simply to attend all the more.

    In the OT, God promised to remove the Heart of Stone and replace it with a heart of flesh; to fill us with his spirit and make us want to obey his commands, right?
    A) That doesn't tell you that it's not in response to people first humbling themselves before the truth of God
    B) That has only been partially fulfilled in us church-age Gentiles as an alternative [yet not unforeseen of God] to the actual
    fulfillment in millennial Jews. That covenant is primarily still future according to Hebrews 8. The next verse in Ezekiel 36 says:
    Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; Only I live in Quebec, not Israel, and most Christians live outside of Israel.

    In Acts 2, a crowd of Jews are drawn by the miracle of the Holy Spirit working through 200 disciples in the upper room. Some mock that they are drunk and others are "pierced to the heart". Is it reasonable to conclude that the Father is the difference between the mockers and the pierced heart (like John 6 and John 10)?
    Given all the above, no, it is not reasonable, in this case.
     
    #28 George Antonios, Sep 21, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
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  9. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    That is an uncharacteristically unjust generalization, and dodgy, on your part.
    Also, odd, to say the least, from someone who claims that world doesn't refer to the world and all doesn't refer to all.
     
    #29 George Antonios, Sep 21, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2020
  10. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    8But God commendeth his love toward [b[us[/b], in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Seems you struggle when God is particular about whom he commendeth his love toward.

    Notice it doesn't say:
    "But God commendeth his love toward the entire human race, in that while all humanity were still sinners, Christ died for all humanity."
    That is what you desperately want God to say, so much so that you create your own self-made doctrine from that verse. However, the reader can clearly observe your error.
     
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  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    As I talk to you now ,hasnt Jesus died for you ? for us ? . At your church wouldn't you understood if you started your sermon with " Jesus died for us " . Would any of that be at the exclusion to another person or group of persons on this forum ? Would by your sermon opener be saying that its only your church that Jesus died for .
    Did Jesus die only for Paul ?
    20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2.20
    The bias is on you and your systematic . In every day usage we say ' us ' and ' we ' and its not always exclusive. By doing that its the Calvinist who is changing the emphasis without justification . It would have to say 'only us ' or ' only elect ' , only believers 'ect .
    But here it is just so clear .
    John 1:29 and 1st John 2:2.
    29¶The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world .

    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only , but also for the sins of the whole world .
     
    #31 Barry Johnson, Sep 22, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  12. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    notice Paul doesn't say

    But God commendeth his love towards us only , in that while only us were still sinners, Christ died for only for us "
     
    #32 Barry Johnson, Sep 22, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
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  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I would be addressing the elect in my church. The church is the embassy of God where we receive a message from our King. Person's who are not citizens of the Kingdom may come listen, but they are not "us." They are rebels who are listening to our King, not their king. Their king is Satan.
     
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  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Paul doesn't need to. He's writing to the elect. They know who they are.
    Barry, your argument here is weak. The reader can see the context and know you are attempting to add to the text.
     
  15. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    It says 'sinners 'while we were yet sinners . Its the negative inference fallacy your commiting by saying this 'we 'only means 'the elect ' ( when I say ' elect ' I mean the augustine's version of 'elect ' )
     
  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    No its Calvinists who see themselves in every verse . Calvinism is the most ' me centred ' worldview within Christian denominations . Its is ridiculous to say Paul is addressing the ' elect ' . Thats a complete bias your bringing to text .
     
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Any non calvinist reader can clearly see that Paul is talking about ' while we were yet sinners ' and ' Christ died for the ungodly ' is not exclusive. If you were going to be silly about it we could claim that Christ only died for these believers paul is referring to at rome and no one else . But we know that's not the case because he mentions other people who are saved also . Maybe its only the ones that are mentioned that are in Christ and no one else thats not mentioned . Maybe in Galations 2.20 when Paul says Christ died for him ,he's really been messing with everyone and really Jesus only died for Paul . Maybe anyone reading those from any cult and religion can claim that really Jesus only died for their cult members. Which now were getting uncomfortably close to calvinisms claim . The Catholics do it be claiming they are the only 'true ones '. Paul is referring to the ' chosen ones '. Chosen , chosen chosen
     
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  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    ...were...
    It's the same as "we were dead in our trespasses and sins"..."but God made us alive with Christ."

    The fallacy here is your excuses.
     
  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    No where does the Bible say that Christ died for all sinners and all the ungodly. If God had said this then all humanity would be saved. You would be a universalist by your position. Are you a universalist?
     
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  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Your post here is just foolish ranting of an ignorant person.
     
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