Featured A Novel Soteriological Explanation in the Calvinism vs Arminianism Debate

The issues with Calvinism and Arminism is that they place a type of choosing by God in the sense of before we were born. The Bible however does not say that sinners were chosen in any sense to be saved . Elect = Jesus
Elect = Jews
Elect = purpose and service .
Elect , is never before we existed.
Predestination is After we believe
Adoption is the future redemption of the body.
Everything else is philosophy from Calvinism/ Arminsim.

 

A valid set of questions, Steven.
But I would caution you against asking about the Lord's freedom to do things, since He has revealed that He can do whatever He wants within the body of His word as He has made known to His children...
The Scriptures.

However, I also concede that you are free to ask whatever questions you like;
It's a forum, and this is, after all, a venue for such things.

As for the last underlined sentence above;

I respectfully find myself disagreeing with you...
To me, the Lord can and does "put Himself into a box" that He has defined, when He decided to reveal His word to the objects of His grace.
All that is found in the Bible with regard to His treatment of any subject is what He wants us to know.

That "box" was established by Him, and I think that we would do well not to go outside of it.

Amen to the first highlighted quote.
I also agree with the second.

In the last highlighted section, I'm not sure why you arrive at this conclusion that there are some who think that we know how His mind works...
I don't know of anyone, especially on the "Calvinist" side, that claims this.

What I see them doing is pointing at the Scriptures and saying, "See? God did choose people to salvation, and did choose them in Christ before the foundation of the world and did send His Son to die for them and them alone!" They point at what God has had written down for our benefit ( Romans 15:4, 2 Timothy 3:15-16 ), believe it, and preach it.

But then some of them have a problem with the other things that God has stated that seem contradictory, so they say to themselves, " That doesn't make sense to me in the light of all this over here, so I reject that!"...
When they should be taking everything in stride.


On the flip side, the staunch "Arminian" then comes along and says, " That doesn't make sense to me in the light of all this over here, so I reject that!" and instead says, " See? God does love the entire world of sinners, wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and sent His Son to die for all of us!"

But to address the last sentence:

God doesn't have to reveal anything to us ( but He does ), and His understanding is not for us to question...
even though we are tempted to do so or to speculate on a great many things.

I will say this:
To me, He doesn't just understand the future, He rules it.

 

I think that humility is called for whenever we as believers start to speculate on what God has on His mind.
As I see it, God knows everything, is capable of far more than any of His creations, and I think that reading the book of Job all by itself should cause us all to fall on our faces in reverence to His awesome power, knowledge and creativity.

As for the last sentence, I think that all of these "verses" ( snippets of things that the Lord has revealed in His word ) should be taken with equal authority to any that show His omnicience, His purposes from eternity, and His decisions to act apart from the will of His creation.

Of course you know where I stand on this, and once again I find myself ( respectfully ) disagreeing with you;
But I also confess that I once viewed this subject as you do, and I'd like to punctuate this by adding:

If one sees 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 ( by itself ) over-riding everything else with respect to this subject, then I would have to agree with you, Steven.
I also would like for you to take a hard look at 2 Peter 3:9, plug it back into the text, and ask yourself who the "us-ward" are in the passage...all men, or the "beloved" from verse 8.

But the more I've read His word over the decades, the more I've seen that even these statements have their context.
To me, that context is with regard to Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 and many more passages that have to do with election, predestination, reprobation ( judicious blinding ), justification, the atonement ( what happened at the cross and for whom ) and so forth.

From my own studies I've come to realize that the God of the Bible is far more complicated and wondrous than what I was initially led to believe when I was growing up in IFB churches, and that, just in the matter of salvation, what He has revealed in His word about it, goes far beyond "The Romans Road", John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 2 Peter 3:9 and a handful of other passages.

I've come to realize that every word must be brought to bear on any subject, no matter how "insignificant" that it may seem to us.
Once that is done, and very thoroughly, then I think it's safe for us as believers to then make a very careful and fully informed statement on a given subject from the Bible.

 

I agree...sort of.

I also see that you've left out the parables of the Sower and the Tares, but you may not have thought of those...
Truly, everyone who "believes" does not end up in the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).

I think that when you make the connection of who it is that does,
It will cause you to sit back and grow very small before the Lord, my friend.

Again I marvel at the progress that you have made in His word in the short time that you've been a believer, Steven.
To me, it is clear testament to the grace that God has shown you through His Son, Jesus Christ.

I cannot tell you how much I see you grasping the things above, while continuing to wrestle with others.

From my perspective, your questions and comments not only show a genuine heart change towards God, but a genuine love of His word and the willingness to believe whatever it says...
Even while He leads you into a deeper understanding of it all.

When I read this statement I almost laughed ( when you called yourself an "Arminian" ), then I almost cried...
and then I decided to reflect on it soberly and to tell you this:

Someday I think that you'll figure this out for yourself...
You're not an "Arminian" and I'm not a "Calvinist".

From where I'm sitting, you're asking all the same questions that I've asked myself over the years.

 

"Steven Yeadon,

,
Proving what is asserted is not as easy as asserting

No. His "freedom is constrained by His Perfect, Holy Omniscience". He cannot be free to act contrary to His Holy Character.

He does not have to decide, as he knows;18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

There is no "if". Furthermore He does not at any time have more or less freedom, By very definition God being perfect , cannot increase and diminish in any of His attributes.


.

.
This is not correct.

You cannot have any scriptural support for these ideas, so they need to be abandoned.

read here;
https://chapellibrary.org:8443/pdf/books/aogo.pdf

 

This is an insightful statement! It demands a third option.

Regarding these examples, God has given us a possible solution in Isaiah.
Isaiah 46:9-10 (KJV) 9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Most Calvinists I’ve talked to use this to say that God ordains all things from the beginning, that all things are “His pleasure”, but I don’t agree. The other way to read this, which is more specific to the text, which I believe makes it more accurate, is to say that God plans stuff out and then He accomplishes it, achieving the end He desired when He planned it out. And whatever end He desires, He most certainly can bring to pass, no matter what anyone, angels, devils, or men, might try to do to thwart it.

In the case of Daniel’s prophecy, there are likely multiple purposes involved, but one of those purposes is likely to have been an Is 46 kind of thing—that God was setting up a situation that would show His power over the future, similar to when He said they would go into Egypt for 400 years. And you can see both how He accomplished the going into Egypt (Joseph’s story) and their extraction from Egypt (Moses’ story). God’s hand was working in both to a very great degree.

 

This question is flawed. God is not merely "the greatest creative being," He is the only creative being in any true sense. Mankind is creative, yes, but that creativity is derivative of God's creativity (being given as a communicable attribute as a matter of us bearing His likeness). What is more, any creativity mankind exhibits only re-arranges that which the Creator has already created. So, we're not working with our own stuff; we are working with His stuff.

Secondly, as to the question of "Freedom"... This discussion always seems to forget that man is nothing more than a creature in the Creator's universe. As such, the creature is never truly "free" in a libertarian sense. The laws of physics, for example, put limits on our freedom. Humans do not fly, as we have no wings. However, human creativity and engineering allows mankind to fly using machines. We cannot grow wings, so we build them. But, that "freedom" to fly is only temporary--when the aircraft cannot generate lift, it will plummet to the ground--because mankind is not "free" to nullify anything (like gravity, in this instance) in the Creator's world.

Secondly, as Creator, God is free to do anything He pleases. The universe is His universe and He is not bound by it (He is transcendent). We are told there are things that God cannot do, however, like lie. What God cannot do is bound by His character.

So, in the final analysis both man and God have some type of limitation on their "freedom," but the difference between those limitations is huge: Man is constrained by God from outside of himself while God is constrained by that which is inside Himself.

God, only being constrained by that which is inside of Himself, is free to do as He pleases with anything and anyone since He is the Creator and we are the creation.

The Archangel

 

The world by wisdom did not know God so logic is not helpful.
Special revelation is how we learn.

 

Lol.
You may already know how I personally feel about logic, Steven.

I'm a scientist from wayyyy back, and I like to know how things "tick"...
but when it comes to God's word, I confess to tossing my logic into the nearest garbage can.
The Lord of all creation totally defies logic.

That is what faith is all about, my friend, and that is why without faith it is impossible to please Him ( Hebrews 11:6 ).
See Proverbs 3:5-7.

 

I’d love to be able to have long conversations with you on this topic, but time doesn’t allow, unfortunately.

I’ll give you some as I have time.

Here’s the first:
Genesis 2:19 (KJV) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

There’s lot to unpack here, but 2 things stand out. 1) That God created Adam with language he could use and understand. 2) That God wanted to see the result of something He had started.

The first says that the second can be read as it seems, instead of trying to make it say something else (like to fit a different theological position than what the words seem to say outright).

The second says God doesn’t know everything we will do. That means He created us creative, like He is, and our creativity is something of an unknown. Later, after the fall, our creativity become corrupted, but mainly in the uses of it, but not in its scope, as shown here:
Genesis 11:6 (KJV) And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now *nothing* will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Added: And if God doesn’t know what we will do in even one instance, then He is likely to need to purpose something different in some instances. But that doesn’t have to change His overarching purpose(s).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

If you can call God sending his precious Son into the world to die for us and the three and one Godhead in counsel agreeing to the same in eternity before the foundations of universe were laid and the Son agreeing to come and carry out the will of the Father and give his life for sinful, ungodly men, which I and all of us are... To human logic, that is illogical as you can get... I have a son also but I wouldn't send him and he wouldn't come, besides the one that died for me died for him also... What did any of us do to deserve what we got, that we didn't deserve... NOTHING!... Anyone on here thinks they deserve Gods Sovereign Amazing Merciful Grace?... None of us do... That brethren is logical... The death that we received in Adam was also logical... The remedy for it Illogical but the only way to appease an offended God was death required and blood shed on behalf of the elect (which I believe is an unnumbered host of the race of mankind, not a pitiful few as some believe) on a cross... God is a God of logic... HIS!... I know this because this same God that his Son Jesus The Christ, paid for our sins on the cross of Calvary and died and was buried in a tomb, was resurrected on the third day... He now sits on his throne right next to the Father as our mediator and the Holy Spirit, is regenerating all those he died for daily... So who did Jesus die for?... ALL the Father gave him and none else... I don't question scripture, I believe it!... And as Dave says, The Lord of all creation totally defies logic... AMEN!... Brother Glen

 

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Furthermore He does not at any time have more or less freedom, By very definition God being perfect , cannot increase and diminish in any of His attributes.

Got questions;
Absolute perfection is a quality that belongs to God alone. Yet only in Matthew 5:48 does the Bible explicitly state that God is by nature perfect: “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” As God is the perfect being, all that He does is perfect: “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deuteronomy 32:4). His knowledge is perfect (Job 37:16). His way is perfect, and His Word is flawless: “As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 18:30). God’s laws are also perfect (Psalm 19:7; James 1:25). The apostle Paul describes God’s will as perfect: “Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will” (Romans 12:2).

Attributes of God,AW.Pink;
Chapter 7 The Immutability of God God is distinguished from His creatures IMMUTABILITY IS ONE OF THE DIVINE PERFECTIONS WHICH is not sufficiently pondered. It is one of the excellencies of the Creator which distinguishes Him from all His creatures. God is perpetually the same: subject to no change in His being, attributes, or determinations.

Therefore God is compared to a “Rock” (Deut 32:4, etc.) which remains immovable, when the entire ocean surrounding it is continually in a fluctuating state; even so, though all creatures are subject to change, God is immutable. Because God has no beginning and no ending, He can know no change. He is everlastingly “the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning” (James 1:17).

Aspects of God’s immutability

First, God is immutable in His essence. His nature and being are infinite, and so, subject to no mutations. There never was a time when He was not; there never will come a time when He shall cease to be. God has neither evolved, grown, nor improved. All that He is today, He has ever been, and ever will be. “I am the LORD, I change not” (Mal 3:6) is His own unqualified affirmation. He cannot change for the better, for He is already perfect; and being perfect, He cannot change for the worse.

Altogether unaffected by anything outside Himself, improvement or deterioration is impossible. He is perpetually the same. He only can say, “I AM THAT I AM” (Exo 3:14). He is altogether uninfluenced by the flight of time. There is no wrinkle upon the brow of eternity. Therefore His power can never diminish nor His glory ever fade.

 

pt2;
Secondly, God is immutable in His attributes. Whatever the attributes of God were before the universe was called into existence, they are precisely the same now, and will remain so for ever. Necessarily so; for they are the very perfections, the essential qualities of His being.

Semper idem (always the same) is written across every one of them. His power is unabated, His wisdom undiminished, His holiness unsullied. The attributes of God can no more change than Deity can cease to be. His veracity is immutable, for His Word is “for ever...settled in heaven” (Psa 119:89). His love is eternal: “I have loved thee with an everlasting love” (Jer 31:3) and “Having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end” (John 13:1). His mercy ceases not, for it is “everlasting” (Psa 100:5).



Thirdly, God is immutable in His counsel. His will never varies. Perhaps some are ready to object that we ought to read the following: “And it repented the LORD that He had made man” (Gen 6:6). Our first reply is, Then do the Scriptures contradict themselves? No, that cannot be. Numbers 23:19 is plain enough: “God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent.” So also in I Samuel 15:29, “The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent.” The explanation is very simple. When speaking of Himself, God frequently accommodates His language to our limited capacities. He describes Himself as clothed with bodily members, as eyes, ears, hands, etc. He speaks of Himself as “waking” (Psa 78:65), as “rising up early” (Jer 7:13); yet He neither slumbers nor sleeps. When He institutes a change in His dealings with men, He describes His course of conduct as “repenting.” Yes, God is immutable in His counsel. “The gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Rom 11:29). It must be so, for “He is in one mind, and who can turn from Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth” (Job 23:13). Change and decay in all around we see, May He who changeth not abide with thee. God’s purpose never alters. One of two things causes a man to change his mind and reverse his plans: want of foresight to anticipate everything, or lack of power to execute them. But as God is both omniscient and omnipotent there is never any need for Him to revise His decrees. No, “The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations” (Psa 33:11). Therefore do we read of “the immutability of His counsel” (Heb 6:17).