Whats wrong with Calvinists ?

[SavedByGrace]

You are always free to return to the Catholic church, but I will stand with the Reformation and the Holy Bible.

Sola Fide (Faith alone)

We are judged righteous in the sight of God purely on the basis of our faith. The atoning sacrifice of Christ leads to righteousness being imputed to us as sinners through a legal declaration by God. This is often stated as Justification by faith alone. There is a clear distinction between Justification and Sanctification, the latter being the growth in holiness arising from the work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian.

FAITH = Forsaking All I Trust Him.

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for the just shall live by faith.” Galatians 3:11 (KJV).​

Commenting on Justification in his writings, Martin Luther argued that:

“This one and firm rock, which we call the doctrine of justification, is the chief article of the whole Christian doctrine, which comprehends the understanding of all godliness.”​

it is those who peddle this heresy of "sola fide", as though it is taught in the Bible, who are really arguing with God Himself! Jesus VERY CLEARLY says, that ALL sinners must "REPENT and BELIEVE" (Mark 1:15), NOT just "faith" which is a FALSE teaching! I would like you to respond to this passage from Mark.

 

[atpollard]

My question is why does Calvinism get a pass from the same category as Mormonism and Russellism when the doctrines are formulated by men and are in opposition to scripture like I just demonstrated?

It would help if you learned what they actually mean. Since you started with "Grace Alone", let's begin there:

Sola Gratia​

In the early fifth century, a theological controversy occurred that would forever shape the thinking of the Church. In his Confessions, Augustine of Hippo wrote in the form of a prayer the words: “Give what Thou commandest and command what Thou will.” The British monk Pelagius was upset by these words, believing that they would give Christians an excuse for not obeying God. Pelagius believed that if God commanded something then man was naturally (apart from grace) able to do it. He believed that this was possible because he also believed that Adam’s sin had only affected Adam. All human beings are born in the same state in which Adam was born, capable of either obeying God or disobeying him. If they obey, their good works merit salvation. If not, they deserve God’s punishment.​

Augustine, on the other hand, taught that Adam’s sin had dramatically impacted all of his descendants. The Reformed churches followed Augustine in their rejection of Pelagianism. The Westminster Confession of Faith, for example, has a clear explanation of the doctrine of original sin. By our first parents’ sin:​

They fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions (VI.1–4).​

Since the Fall all human beings are born in this fallen state with their will (one of the faculties of soul and body) in bondage to sin. Because of the Fall, we are born spiritually dead, unable to choose or will the good (Rom. 3:10–12; 5:6; Eph. 2:1).​

Although Pelagianism was condemned as a heresy at a number of councils, including the third ecumenical council in 431, it has raised its head in various forms ever since. By the late medieval period, the Roman Catholic Church had fallen into a type of semi-Pelagianism. The justification of the sinner was seen as a kind of synergistic, co-operative work between God and the sinner. The doctrine of sola gratia was the Protestant response to this.​

The Protestant doctrine of sola gratia is found in all of the major Reformed confessions. It underlies everything said regarding the state of the fallen sinner, election, calling, regeneration, conversion, justification, and more. The point that the Reformers wanted to make in the sixteenth century is the same point that Augustine made in the fifth. We are not saved by pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. The fallen sinner is not a drowning man who merely needs to do his part by reaching out to grab the life preserver tossed by God. No, the sinner is in a far more serious condition. He cannot grab a life preserver because he is not merely drowning. He is a cold, dead, lifeless corpse on the bottom of the sea. If he is to be saved, he will not be able to cooperate with God. His salvation will be an act of pure grace, and grace alone, on the part of God (Ephesians 2:8).
​

My question is: Does Calvinism NEED a pass and ARE the doctrines formulated by men in opposition to scripture?

 

[SavedByGrace]

It would help if you learned what they actually mean. Since you started with "Grace Alone", let's begin there:

Sola Gratia​

In the early fifth century, a theological controversy occurred that would forever shape the thinking of the Church. In his Confessions, Augustine of Hippo wrote in the form of a prayer the words: “Give what Thou commandest and command what Thou will.” The British monk Pelagius was upset by these words, believing that they would give Christians an excuse for not obeying God. Pelagius believed that if God commanded something then man was naturally (apart from grace) able to do it. He believed that this was possible because he also believed that Adam’s sin had only affected Adam. All human beings are born in the same state in which Adam was born, capable of either obeying God or disobeying him. If they obey, their good works merit salvation. If not, they deserve God’s punishment.​

Augustine, on the other hand, taught that Adam’s sin had dramatically impacted all of his descendants. The Reformed churches followed Augustine in their rejection of Pelagianism. The Westminster Confession of Faith, for example, has a clear explanation of the doctrine of original sin. By our first parents’ sin:​

They fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions (VI.1–4).​

Since the Fall all human beings are born in this fallen state with their will (one of the faculties of soul and body) in bondage to sin. Because of the Fall, we are born spiritually dead, unable to choose or will the good (Rom. 3:10–12; 5:6; Eph. 2:1).​

Although Pelagianism was condemned as a heresy at a number of councils, including the third ecumenical council in 431, it has raised its head in various forms ever since. By the late medieval period, the Roman Catholic Church had fallen into a type of semi-Pelagianism. The justification of the sinner was seen as a kind of synergistic, co-operative work between God and the sinner. The doctrine of sola gratia was the Protestant response to this.​

The Protestant doctrine of sola gratia is found in all of the major Reformed confessions. It underlies everything said regarding the state of the fallen sinner, election, calling, regeneration, conversion, justification, and more. The point that the Reformers wanted to make in the sixteenth century is the same point that Augustine made in the fifth. We are not saved by pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. The fallen sinner is not a drowning man who merely needs to do his part by reaching out to grab the life preserver tossed by God. No, the sinner is in a far more serious condition. He cannot grab a life preserver because he is not merely drowning. He is a cold, dead, lifeless corpse on the bottom of the sea. If he is to be saved, he will not be able to cooperate with God. His salvation will be an act of pure grace, and grace alone, on the part of God (Ephesians 2:8).
​

My question is: Does Calvinism NEED a pass and ARE the doctrines formulated by men in opposition to scripture?

JUST answer what Jesus means in Mark 1:15, never mind what history of theology have to say!

 

[Dave G]

Because Calvinists, due to Lordship salvation, only find out for sure if they were one of the elect after a lifetime of persevering.

George,
I confess that I rarely reply to your posts anymore, but in this instance I'd like to take the opportunity to clarify something:

1) Despite being exposed to the teachings in perhaps a traditional sense, I suspect that you never really did believe and/ or understand ( at least in the same way as those that you call "Calvinists" ) the Scriptures behind what you label it as.
2) "Lordship Salvation", as I was raised in Independent Baptist churches and was exposed to it for over 25 years before I came to see election for myself, is basically this:

Unless someone "makes Jesus Christ the Lord of their life, they cannot be saved".
As taught in many of the "Traditionalist / Provisionist" churches I either visited or was a member of in the 42 years since I believed on Jesus Christ during the preaching of His word, the "invitation" is given during a presentation of the Gospel and the sinner is urged to repent, believe, and to "make Jesus Christ the Lord of their life" before they are pronounced as "saved".

That is what I personally know ( and was taught ) as "Lordship Salvation".
The "Calvinistic" version is basically this...

The believer, after being "called" ( summoned ) by the power of God's Spirit using His very words, will come to acknowledge Christ as Lord of their life and to give Him the worship and respect that is due Him.
If someone does not, at some point, "bow to this", it is not "to get saved", but that they never were saved by God from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
They will inevitably fall way back into a love of the world and its ways, and they will stop growing in grace and knowledge...because they never were in the process of actual spiritual growth to begin with.
In other words, they never had the Holy Spirit come in and make that person's body His residence, true spiritual fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ) never comes to full growth and instead withers and dies, and they would never have the evidence of this:

" Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." ( 1 Corinthians 12:3 ).

Also, professing it with the lips is one thing...but living it with the life is quite another.
In addition, true believers can and are assured, at some point, by the Holy Spirit in them:

" The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" ( Romans 8:16 ).

As well as 1 John 4 and 1 John 5:1-13 describing many of the evidences that can be observed in their life by the person that is saved.


I hope that helps.

 

[JD731]

There is a clear distinction between Justification and Sanctification, the latter being the growth in holiness arising from the work of the Holy Spirit in the Christian.

Actually, atpollard, sanctification has a twofold application in scripture. First, one is sanctified by the Spirit when he is saved and put into the body of Christ. Secondly, he is "called" to be sanctified. In other words, he is called to personal sanctification where his walk will match his position as a son of God.

Here, is a passage that speaks of the first. Check it out.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning (the beginning for gentiles was in Acts 10) chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (this verse speaks of predestination to a glorified body)

Here are a couple that speaks of the second:


1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Set apart "in" Christ Jesus but called to be set apart. The context will explain why and how.

Here is another;

2 Tim 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

The purpose of God in Christ is the same here as it is in Rom 8 and Eph 1, and that purpose is to form the body of Christ, "now" as it is said in v 10, and then to glorify it, the immortality of the body, which is future. Eternal life comes before the immortality of the body.

Our calling as the body of Christ is to glory! This is the ultimate sanctification.

 

[atpollard]

JUST answer what Jesus means in Mark 1:15, never mind what history of theology have to say!

JD731 didn't ask me what Jesus means in Mark 1:15, so why would my post have answered a question that he didn't ask?
Your comment makes no sense at all.

 

[SavedByGrace]

JD731 didn't ask me what Jesus means in Mark 1:15, so why would my post have answered a question that he didn't ask?
Your comment makes no sense at all.

I am asking you the question, can you deal with it?

 

[atpollard]

it is those who peddle this heresy of "sola fide", as though it is taught in the Bible, who are really arguing with God Himself! Jesus VERY CLEARLY says, that ALL sinners must "REPENT and BELIEVE" (Mark 1:15), NOT just "faith" which is a FALSE teaching! I would like you to respond to this passage from Mark.

I am asking you the question, can you deal with it?

"I would like you to respond to this passage from Mark."

[Mark 1:14-15 NKJV] 14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

[Matthew 4:12-17 NKJV] 12 Now when Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, He departed to Galilee. 13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the regions of Zebulun and Naphtali, 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: 15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, [By] the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles: 16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned." 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

[Luke 4:14-15 NKJV] 14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region. 15 And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.

I think it means:

• Jesus went to Galilee
• Jesus warned people to "Repent" (Just as John the Baptist had).
• Jesus warned people that "the kingdom of God is at hand" (Just as John the Baptist had).
• This was the "good news" (gospel) mentioned in Mark 1:15
• Jesus cannot have started his ministry asking people to believe the "Gospel" that "Jesus is God and he has died for their sins and the Father raised him from the dead; now that he has ascended into heaven, those who confess Jesus is Lord and believe God raised him from the dead will be saved and are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance" ... so the call to believe the "good news" must be some good news different from the good news that we know today.

Having taken care of that, here are some places where you can learn what sola Fide really means:

GotQuestions

J.I.Packer

compellingTruth
https://lutheranreformation.org/theology/sola-fide/
LutheranReformation

 

[SavedByGrace]

"I would like you to respond to this passage from Mark."

[Mark 1:14-15 NKJV] 14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

[Matthew 4:12-17 NKJV] 12 Now when Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, He departed to Galilee. 13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the regions of Zebulun and Naphtali, 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: 15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, [By] the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles: 16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned." 17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

[Luke 4:14-15 NKJV] 14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region. 15 And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.

I think it means:

• Jesus went to Galilee
• Jesus warned people to "Repent" (Just as John the Baptist had).
• Jesus warned people that "the kingdom of God is at hand" (Just as John the Baptist had).
• This was the "good news" (gospel) mentioned in Mark 1:15
• Jesus cannot have started his ministry asking people to believe the "Gospel" that "Jesus is God and he has died for their sins and the Father raised him from the dead; now that he has ascended into heaven, those who confess Jesus is Lord and believe God raised him from the dead will be saved and are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing their inheritance" ... so the call to believe the "good news" must be some good news different from the good news that we know today.

Having taken care of that, here are some places where you can learn what sola Fide really means:

GotQuestions

J.I.Packer

compellingTruth
LutheranReformation

Jesus says that BOTH Repentance AND Faith are required to get saved. anything else is a false gospel!

 

[George Antonios]

UNBIBLICAL!!!

Yet again, that depends on the dispensation/age.
In the church age it's Biblical.
In the tribulation and the millennial kingdom it's not Biblical.

 

[Yeshua1]

sure, but textual studies have advanced over the years, and new evidence for readings of passages must be considered if well supported.

I fully agree with you, as do think nas and esv superior to the Kjv, but still a good translation!

 

[George Antonios]

The church is only gentile?

Of course, as a body.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's kind of you to say.

On a side note, did you know that mocking and scoffing are bad fruits ( Galatians 5:19-21 )?
Those actions are both rooted in pride and are done from a perspective of trying to establish superiority over an opponent...
In the AV, it's known as "emulations", and the Bible says that people who do that unrepentantly will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

Are you saying that it's not God's word?

Just to be clear, it appears that you're saying that it's corrupt and not to be trusted,
When it has been considered God's word in the English for over 400 years by many millions of believers.

Again, do you think it's not the word of God?
I do.

Therefore, when I point at it and it says, "thus saith the Lord", I'm looking at God's words in my own language...
A little out-of-date, perhaps.

he did nor say either corrupted or not trustworthy, just that other translations have it superior in some places!

 

[Yeshua1]

Because we are predestined to the Adoption after we believe, being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

We are predestined unto salvation when elected by the Father before saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

No thats the confusion. Both Calvinism and Arminsim put election and Predestination before we are converted. The bible says its after . This , just like other issues with certain 'isms' comes across quite radical. Like issues with the extent ,intent , potent nonsense about limiting the atonement.

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

God chose us to be in Christ from eternity past, before the foundation of the world!

 

[Yeshua1]

You're telling me that the AV is not the inspired word of God.

To me, you're a liar.

NO bible translation is inspired!

 

[George Antonios]

This is a statement contradicted by scripture and taught by no "Calvinist" that I know. Certainly the Doctrines of Grace do not teach that Perseverance of the Saints means "You cannot know that you are a Saint until you have Persevered to the end". It teaches exactly the opposite. The Saints, the Elect, those CHOSEN by God will persevere to the end because God is able to make them persevere to the end. Charles Spurgeon taught no such nonsense as you claim. R.C.Sproul taught no such nonsense as you claim.

So once again, a non-Calvinist that is an expert on what Calvinists believe raising up and tearing down yet another strawman.
[Sigh] I would claim to be surprised, but the truth is this is just "par for the course".

Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Solus Christus
Sola Scriptura
Soli Deo Gloria

You don't know any Calvinist yet we had a thread about this.

Does God Really Save Us by Faith Alone? by John Piper

"In final salvation [emphasis in original] at the last judgment, faith is confirmed by the sanctifying fruit it has borne,
and we are saved through that fruit and that faith."

You don't know that you're one of the elect yet because you have NOT persevered unto the end of your life yet.

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh?
So then nothing I pick up can be trusted to be the inspired word of God.
I think I understand your position thoroughly now.

I also think that you should start a thread saying that the AV, as well as none of the other translations in the English, are ( or even contain ) God's inspired words.
That should go over well, especially with people who aren't aware of what you know about the "KJV" and they are still thinking that it's God's word.

But we're dealing with a subject in the "Calvinism versus Arminiansm" section, and that would be for the "Bible Translations" section.

we have an infallible english translation, but not with without any mistakes or errors!

 

[Yeshua1]

You're telling me that the AV is not the inspired word of God.

To me, you're a liar.

No translation is inspired!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I fully agree with you, as do think nas and esv superior to the Kjv, but still a good translation!

the KJV is still in a class of its own, but not "Inspired" as some think! NAS and ESV cannot be "superior" to the KJV, because of their false readings at Luke 1:35; 1 Timothy 3:16; and 1 John 5:7. three very important verses on Fundamental Doctrines