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Featured A Vital Contemporary Question, from A.W. Pink.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Alan Gross, Oct 15, 2020.

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  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    A Vital Contemporary Question

    The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink

    It is our deep conviction that the vital question most requiring to be raised today is this:

    Is man a totally and thoroughly depraved creature by nature?

    Does he enter the world completely ruined and helpless, spiritually blind and dead in trespasses and sins?

    According as is our answer to that question, so will be our views on many others.

    It is on the basis of this dark background that the whole Bible proceeds.

    Any attempt to modify or abate, repudiate or tone down the teaching of Scripture on the matter is fatal.

    Put the question in another form:

    Is man now in such a condition that he cannot be saved without the special and direct intervention of the triune God on his behalf?

    In other words, is there any hope for him apart from his personal election by the Father, his particular redemption by the Son, and the supernatural operations of the Spirit within him?

    Or, putting it in still another way:

    If man is a totally depraved being, can he possibly take the first step in the matter of his return to God?
     
    #1 Alan Gross, Oct 15, 2020
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  2. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink

    "The subject which this chapter is designed to introduce is likely to meet with a decidedly mixed reception.

    "Some readers will probably be very disappointed when they see the title of this book, considering the subject quite unattractive and unedifying.

    "If so, they are to be pitied; we hope that God will bless the contents to them.

    "Medicine is proverbially unpleasant, but there are times when all of us find it necessary and beneficial.

    "Others will be thankful that, by divine grace, we seek to glorify God rather than please the flesh. And surely that which most glorifies God is to declare "all his counsel," to insist on that which puts man in his proper place before Him, and to emphasize those portions and aspects of the truth which our generation is most in need of.

    "As we shall endeavor to show, our theme is one of immense doctrinal importance and of great practical value."
     
    #2 Alan Gross, Oct 15, 2020
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Scriptural Answer

    The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink

    The scriptural answer to that question makes evident the utter futility of the schemes of social reformers for "the moral elevation of the masses," the plans of politicians for the peace of the nations, and the ideologies of dreamers to usher in a golden age for this world.

    It is both pathetic and tragic to see many of our greatest men putting their faith in such chimeras.

    Divisions and discords, hatred and bloodshed, cannot be banished while human nature is what it is.

    But during the past century the steady trend of a deteriorating Christendom has been to underrate the evil of sin and overrate the moral capabilities of men.

    Instead of proclaiming the heinousness of sin, there has been a dwelling more upon its inconveniences, and the abasing portrayal of the lost condition of man as set forth in Holy Writ has been obscured if not obliterated by flattering disquisitions on human advancement.

    If the popular religion of the churches—including nine-tenths of what is termed "evangelical Christianity—be tested at this point, it will be found that it clashes directly with man's fallen, ruined and spiritually dead condition.

    There is therefore a crying need today for sin to be viewed in the light of God's law and gospel, so that its exceeding sinfulness may be demonstrated, and the dark depths of human depravity exposed by the teaching of Holy Writ, that we may learn what is connoted by those fearful words "dead in trespasses and sins."

    The grand object of the Bible is to make God known to us, to portray man as he appears in the eyes of his Maker, and to show the relation of one to the other.

    It is therefore the business of His servants not only to declare the divine character and perfections, but also to delineate the original condition and apostasy of man, as well as the divine remedy for his ruin.

    Until we really behold the horror of the pit in which by nature we lie, we can never properly appreciate Christ's so-great salvation.

    In man's fallen condition we have the awful disease for which divine redemption is the only cure, and our estimation and valuation of the provisions of divine grace will necessarily be modified in proportion as we modify the need it was meant to meet.

    David Clarkson, one of the Puritans, pointed out this fact in his sermon on Psalm 51:5:

    The end of the ministry of the Gospel is to bring sinners unto Christ.

    Their way to this end lies through the sense of their misery without Christ.

    The ingredients of this misery are our sinfulness, original and actual; the wrath of God, whereto sin has exposed us;

    and our impotency to free ourselves either from sin or wrath.

    That we may therefore promote this great end, we shall endeavour, as the Lord will assist, to lead you in this way, by the sense of misery, to Him who alone can deliver from it.

    Now the original of our misery being the corruption of our nature, or original sin, we thought fit to begin here, and therefore have pitched upon these words as very proper for our purpose:

    "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
     
    #3 Alan Gross, Oct 15, 2020
  4. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    Hey! I'm a good person.
    I am not totally bad.
    Sure, I make mistakes but then everyone else does too.
    Nobody's perfect.
    Some people are much better than me like Gandhi or Mother Teresa.
    Some people are much worse than me like Hitler or Stalin.

    You bible people are fruitcakes.

    And you
    he hath quickened,
    who were dead
    in trespasses and sins;
    Ephesians 2:1
     
    #4 SGO, Oct 15, 2020
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  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    That sounds like a lot of people I know.:(
     
    #5 Dave G, Oct 19, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Anything less than sinless perfection gets same guilty judgement!
     
    #6 Yeshua1, Oct 19, 2020
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  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    This is from the Articles Of Faith from a friend of mines church, who has been preaching over 60 years and make no mistake about it, The Old Line Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist Church I grew up in, is similar to his and our preachers did not shy one iota, from preaching the Total Depravity Of Man... Brother Glen:)

    3. We believe that in the transgression of Adam he fell under the condemnation of God's holy law, and that all his posterity were corrupted in him, and so are condemned in sin, and have neither will nor power to deliver themselves from this state and condemnation.

    Genesis 2:17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.

    Romans 5:12. Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

    Romans 5:19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Romans 3:9. . . .for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin.

    Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

    Ephesians 2:1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

    Romans 8:7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Btw... Alan thanks for the link but I believe I read it about 6 months ago but then my computer crashed and I lost my Pink collection.
     
    #7 tyndale1946, Oct 19, 2020
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Alan Gross
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Oct 19, 2020
  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

    Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
    And in sin my mother conceived me. - NKJV     - Does that not extend back to the very first two brought forth into the world, which had been cast down, by God ?

    Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
    And in sin my mother conceived me. - NKJV -     Was that not according to the plan of God foreordained before the foundation of the world? Was man, according to the plan of God, suppose to be brought forth in iniquity and conceived in sin, for the purpose of being redeemed by the blood of Christ?

    Consider; Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by (of) tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    But what about Adam? Let's look at Adam.

    And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day the sixth.

    Is the creation of God, including the man in his image, complete. It is day six and doesn't God then rest because he is through with the creation? Gen 2:1-3 And the heavens and the earth are completed, and all their host; and God completeth by the seventh day His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh day from all His work which He hath made. And God blesseth the seventh day, and sanctifieth it, for in it He hath ceased from all His work which God had prepared for making.

    Now here is what is written in Romans 8:20 YLT for to vanity was the creation (day 6) made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope,

    Here is what the preacher wrote. Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

    Did the clay, do exactly what the potter knew the clay would do, being clay? Before the foundation of the world what was man going to need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ as of a lamb, from?

    Was it the plan or was God putting out fires?

    Maybe Pink and a lot of others should ask, why the plan?

    Eph 6:12 because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;

    This age of what? When did this age begin? Does this age have anything to do with marrying and being given in marriage, See Luke 20:34,35 And Jesus answering said to them, 'The sons of this age do marry and are given in but those accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the rising again that is out of the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage; Was the beginning of the age when God divided the light, that good, from the darkness ?

    Had there already been war in Heaven?
     
    #9 percho, Oct 20, 2020
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Not true total depravity is not in scripture.

    Also not true

    No one makes that claim that I know of it is an accusation made by Calvinist on anyone who does not believe in Calvinism. First of all man is not so depraved as Calvinist Claim. The Bible never applies this to man. Not even in Rom 3:10-20 which is a quote from a fool as in Psalms 14
    Not to mention Acts 28:28 this says the gospel has been sent to the Gentiles and they will hear it and Paul says this. So it is not true that man cannot hear the gospel after all Jesus spoke in parables to keep men from understanding and those parables still are confusing to man to day. Even the disciples didn't understand those parables. Christ had to explain them to the disciples.
    MB
     
    #10 MB, Oct 30, 2020
  11. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Nothing.

    Started with nothing and ended with nothing.

    0.
     
    #11 Alan Gross, Oct 30, 2020
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Then you must not be able to read it's really Nothing ending with philosophy
    MB
     
    #12 MB, Oct 30, 2020
  13. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    The Infinite Eternal God of the Universe Chose to Glorify Himself and Have everything else Glorify The Trice-Holy Godhead, whether as His children or those suffering torment, Forever.

    God Knows His children had done no good or evil that the Teachings of Total Depravity, Unmerited Grace & Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, & Preservation of His children (the saints) WILL STAND.
     
    #13 Alan Gross, Oct 30, 2020
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    God does not glory in the death of the wicked. He has no pleasure in it in any way.. Nothing in scripture ever says he gains glory from it This is in your imagination. What a horrible thing to say about God.
    MB
     
    #14 MB, Oct 31, 2020
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His Power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


    "nothing"

    Many Disciples Turn Back

    John 6:…62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?

    63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

    64 However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)…

    Berean Study Bible · Download
     
    #15 Alan Gross, Oct 31, 2020
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Nothing LOL the first three words of verse 22 says "what if God" A "what if' is a supposed scenario nothing more. It does not say that God did show His wrath.

    Many Disciples Turn Back

    John 6:…62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?

    63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

    64 However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)…

    Berean Study Bible · Download[/QUOTE]
    I have not turned back so what's your point?.
    MB
     
    #16 MB, Nov 1, 2020
  17. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    I have not turned back so what's your point?.
    MB[/QUOTE]

    So, you're basing your Eternal Life on nothing?

    "the flesh profits nothing".

    'What if' your flesh is infinitely wrong?

    All you know for sure is that you are arguing nothing and you know it.

    What's it to you?

    Same expression.

    What's it to you if God is Willing to Show His Wrath?

    You're flesh disagrees?

    That is nothing in spades.

    The flesh profits nothing and doesn't understand God's Words, for sure.
     
    #17 Alan Gross, Nov 1, 2020
  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    So, you're basing your Eternal Life on nothing?

    "the flesh profits nothing".

    'What if' your flesh is infinitely wrong?

    All you know for sure is that you are arguing nothing and you know it.

    What's it to you?

    Same expression.

    What's it to you if God is Willing to Show His Wrath?

    You're flesh disagrees?

    That is nothing in spades.

    The flesh profits nothing and doesn't understand God's Words, for sure.     [/QUOTE]
    What a hypocrite you are You judge me by you Calvinism. God will judge you by it as well.
    All you can do is attack people. I suppose this is spiritual for you but it isn't it's just plain pride.
    MB
     
    #18 MB, Nov 1, 2020
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

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    What a hypocrite you are You judge me by you Calvinism. God will judge you by it as well.
    All you can do is attack people. I suppose this is spiritual for you but it isn't it's just plain pride.
    MB[/QUOTE]

    Yes, your rejection of God and His Words are based on nothing.

    You take any naturally born child of Adam and allow them to work with nothing Spiritual, and reason with a mind that has been effected by the fall of Adam and you get carnality that equals nothing.

    It's a testimony of depravity.

    Perfectly normal.

    Perfectly natural.

    Get some Book.

    The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink
     
    #19 Alan Gross, Nov 1, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2020
  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    " If man is a totally depraved being, can he possibly take the first step in the matter of his return to God?"

    If man is totally depraved how does he even breathe? sounds like a good case that he is not.
     
    #20 utilyan, Nov 1, 2020
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