The eternal subordination of the Word.

[SavedByGrace]

But the Lamb is not God in the Revelation. Our Lord Jesus Christ is both being the Word.

I don't think that you really know yourself what you are on about? Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, The Great I AM, YHWH. He also has other Names by which He is known, like "The Word", and in these passages in Revealtion, "The Lamb", as of His Sacrifice for the sins of the human race. The texts that I have shown from Revelation, show that both Jesus Christ, here as "The Lamb", and "God" as in the Father, are JOINT RULERS, as they share the one Throne and have the same power and authority, which makes them BOTH COEQUAL. Therefore there can be NO "subordination" between the Father and Jesus Christ.

 

[JamesL]

That Jesus, while on earth in as the God-Man, laid aside His Glory and Equality with the Father, for this time.

Of course. But the question is....did He set aside His glory primarily to become flesh, or was the greater purpose to become the Suffering Servant?

I believe it's the latter. Because it was through His suffering that glory and honor were bestowed upon Him

 

[SavedByGrace]

did He set aside His glory primarily to become flesh

to "become flesh", is when the Eternal Logos took upon Himself the "nature" of humans (sin excepted), while He remained to be Almighty God. This was an "emptying of Himself" of the Glory and Equality that He had from eternity with the Father (John 17:5). I think that it is better worded, not, "did He set aside His glory primarily to become flesh", but, "did He set aside His glory primarily when He became flesh", which is yes.

 

[JamesL]

to "become flesh", is when the Eternal Logos took upon Himself the "nature" of humans (sin excepted), while He remained to be Almighty God. This was an "emptying of Himself" of the Glory and Equality that He had from eternity with the Father (John 17:5). I think that it is better worded, not, "did He set aside His glory primarily to become flesh", but, "did He set aside His glory primarily when He became flesh", which is yes.

The way you reworded my question, then answered, does not answer my question

 

[SavedByGrace]

The way you reworded my question, then answered, does not answer my question

you said, "did He set aside His glory primarily to become flesh, or was the greater purpose to become the Suffering Servant?". I answered, # 23, which is very simple to understand. read it again.

 

[37818]

what are you on about?

This thread is to give and discuss the explanation of the inteerpretation for the eternal subordination of the eternal uncaused Word of God.
Now your opinion is not the inerrant word of God here.

"The eternal subordination of the Word" = unbiblical heresy!

Your assertion is without Biblical evidence which would disallow the interpretation of "an eternal" subordination of the Word.

 

[37818]

@JonC,
Do you not understand my reasoning for thinking that the Eternal Word of God did not cease being the Glory of God in changing how He was "with the God" in leaving the glory as He said He shared with His Father per John 17:5. "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
Note I referenced John 1:9, Hebrews 1:3 and John 3:13 KJV. Compare also John 1:9 with John 17:3.

 

[SavedByGrace]

This thread is to give and discuss the explanation of the inteerpretation for the eternal subordination of the eternal uncaused Word of God

there won't be much discussion on this, as this is a false theory!

 

[JamesL]

This thread is to give and discuss the explanation of the inteerpretation for the eternal subordination of the eternal uncaused Word of God....

Where does scripture say the Word of God is uncaused?

 

[37818]

there won't be much discussion on this, as this is a false theory!

So you think. Can you give a simple proof as to why you this this? John 1:1-2 teaches two things about the Word. Twice that the Word is someone other than God. And that the Word was also God too, John 1:1, with John 1:3, and John 1:10.

 

[37818]

Where does scripture say the Word of God is uncaused?

Where in the Scripture does it say the Word is a created entity? To be God, John 1:1 is to be uncaused.

 

[JonC]

@JonC,
Do you not understand my reasoning for thinking that the Eternal Word of God did not cease being the Glory of God in changing how He was "with the God" in leaving the glory as He said He shared with His Father per John 17:5. "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
Note I referenced John 1:9, Hebrews 1:3 and John 3:13 KJV. Compare also John 1:9 with John 17:3.

I do. And you may be correct. I just disagree. We may be looking at this "glory" differently (I do not have a good definition).

I think we may agree with one another in our disagreement. I see Christ as setting aside this glory to become man - the Incarnation. But I do not have a good definition of this (of Christ "emptying" Himself). Add to this tge fact Christ never became "less God" and I certainly see your point

 

[canadyjd]

Being "with the God" is being someone other than God. In John 1:1-2 the Word was both "with the God" and "was God." How He is not God is subordination.

It is a statement of equality. Being “with” God was to be “face to face” with God. That is a statement of equality. Saying He “was God” is saying He possessed all the attributes of Deity, another statement of equality.

This is not a statement of subordination, even though I tend to believe the concept of eternal subordination.

There is perfect unity within the Godhead. There is no “power struggle” as to which person of the Trinity will “be in charge”.

Each person has specific roles in the application of God’s perfect will and plan.

peace to you

 

[37818]

. I see Christ as setting aside this glory to become man - the Incarnation.

He did in my view as how he was eternaly "with the God." But as to how He "was God" in my view cannot have changed, John 1:9, Hebrews 1:3 and John 3:13 KJV.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Where does scripture say the Word of God is uncaused?

Jesus is the Great I AM (John 8:58) which is what He tells Moses in Exodus 3:14-15, where He says, "I am Who I am", and then says that His Name is YHWH. The Hebrew root for the Name YHWH, is literally, "eternal, unchanging, uncreated". This is absolute proof that Jesus Christ is, "THE SAME, yesterday, and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8)!

 

[SavedByGrace]

So you think. Can you give a simple proof as to why you this this? John 1:1-2 teaches two things about the Word. Twice that the Word is someone other than God. And that the Word was also God too, John 1:1, with John 1:3, and John 1:10.

your title for this thread is, "The eternal subordination of the Word", and you have not provided a single Scripture that even suggests this???

 

[SavedByGrace]

eternal subordination

based on exactly what Scripture? There is not even ONE in the OT or NT that even suggests this!

 

[JamesL]

Where in the Scripture does it say the Word is a created entity? To be God, John 1:1 is to be uncaused.

Why do you think the Word would have to be created in order to have a cause?

 

[37818]

It is a statement of equality. Being “with” God was to be “face to face” with God. That is a statement of equality. Saying He “was God” is saying He possessed all the attributes of Deity, another statement of equality.

This is not a statement of subordination, even though I tend to believe the concept of eternal subordination.

There is perfect unity within the Godhead. There is no “power struggle” as to which person of the Trinity will “be in charge”.

Each person has specific roles in the application of God’s perfect will and plan.

peace to you

As God the Word never changed.
But as to how the Word was face to face did change. Note the Greek expression which translated "with the God" is used some 19 times in the New Testament.
Take a look at any of the other 17 references:
Acts of the Apostles 4:24
Acts of the Apostles 12:5
Acts of the Apostles 24:16
Romans 4:2
Romans 5:1
Romans 10:1
Romans 15:30
2 Corinthians 3:4
2 Corinthians 13:7
Philippians 4:6
1 Thessalonians 1:8
1 Thessalonians 1:9
Hebrews 2:17
Hebrews 5:1
1 John 3:21
Revelation 12:5
Revelation 13:6

The point of my agument is that the Word was also always someone other than God as well as being the very God prior to His incarnation. That is the Son of God. Another uncaused Person.

 

[JamesL]

based on exactly what Scripture? There is not even ONE in the OT or NT that even suggests this!

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

That seems to suggest subordination. So does this one...

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.