Fervently Fervent

[Van]

In the NASB95 and KJV, several different words are all translated as fervent or fervently. However their historical meanings differ significantly. Thus the distinctions intended by the inspired author have been obliterated.

In Acts 18:25 and Romans 12:11, we have "zeo" (G2204) with a literal meaning of "hot," and a metaphoric meaning of emotional commitment translated as "fervent." That is certainly consistent with the modern meaning of fervent, i.e. passionate intensity.

However, if we look at 1 Peter 4:8, we find another Greek word, "ektenes" (G1618) which historically means incessant or incessantly also being translated as "fervent."

And if you look at other English translations, you will find additional Greek words also translated as fervent or fervently. For example the KJV translates G1754 as effectual fervent at James 5:16.

Would it not be nice if someone translated God's word concordantly, where each word or phrase meaning in the original, was translated distinctively into English. Thus "Hell" would be replaced by Hades and Gehenna.

 

[John of Japan]

In the NASB95 and KJV, several different words are all translated as fervent or fervently. However their historical meanings differ significantly. Thus the distinctions intended by the inspired author have been obliterated.

What in the world is an "historical meaning"? Do you mean the meaning in classical Greek? Do you mean the etymology? Some earlier form of koine Greek? In Greek studies (which you eschew) we don't normally use the term "historical meaning."

In Acts 18:25 and Romans 12:11, we have "zeo" (G2204) with a literal meaning of "hot," and a metaphoric meaning of emotional commitment translated as "fervent." That is certainly consistent with the modern meaning of fervent, i.e. passionate intensity.

No, zeo (ζεω) does not mean "hot." The English word is an adjective, but zeo is a verb meaning "I boil" or "I seethe." You have both the part of speech wrong and the meaning wrong.

In this verse the word "fervent" is the participle for zeo. The Greek for the adjective "hot" is actually a different word, zestos (ζεστος). This word can normally mean "boiled," but metaphorically "zealous."

However, if we look at 1 Peter 4:8, we find another Greek word, "ektenes" (G1618) which historically means incessant or incessantly also being translated as "fervent."

The word "incessant" in English is a noun, but the word "incessantly" is an adverb. So one Greek word cannot mean both grammatically.

And if you look at other English translations, you will find additional Greek words also translated as fervent or fervently. For example the KJV translates G1754 as effectual fervent at James 5:16.

You did a little better here.

Would it not be nice if someone translated God's word concordantly, where each word or phrase meaning in the original, was translated distinctively into English. Thus "Hell" would be replaced by Hades and Gehenna.

"Hell" is a perfectly accurate word for hades (ἁδης) if the context is right. And Hades and Gehenna are both transliterations, not translations.

I simply wanted to take the opportunity to rebuke your lack of knowledge here. I hope you take it in stride. "A scorner heareth not rebuke" (Prov. 13:1). Don't be a scorner. Be wise. Your status in the priesthood of the believer allows humility and learning. I am not abandoning the priesthood of the believer simply because I study and learn specialized knowledge. You are completely free to do the same.

I highly recommend you get some "specialized knowledge" and become a Gnostic (in your terms) if you want to pontificate on Greek. You make far too many errors. Forgive me. I'll get off your thread now, and not bother you again. I'll go back to the "Gnosticism" you claim I teach.

 

[Van]

Were two different Greek words both translated into the same English word? Yes.
So your effort to find fault demonstrates an inability to grasp reality.

Here is the meaning from a published source:

1. to boil with heat, be hot
   1. used of water
   2. metaph.
      1. used of boiling anger, love, zeal, for what is good or bad etc.
      2. fervent in spirit, said of zeal for what is good

So much for the bogus assertions of error.

In 1 Peter 4:8 the word is an adjective modifying the noun "love" as in "incessant love."
I should not have to explain the obvious to someone well qualified to grasp this truth.

Please do not clutter this thread with your ignorant posts. And if anyone thinks I claimed JOJ taught Gnosticism, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. He makes up inaccurate smears and posts them.

Here is the deal, our modern translators have failed to provide an accurate translation of God's word, and our translations could be improved quite easily, if the translators were not so defensive.

 

[Van]

Lets take a look at Acts of the Apostles 18:25. Here are the different English words used to translate the Greek word as fervent in the NASB.

NIV - great fervor
NLT - enthusiastic
CEV - great excitement
GNT - great enthusiasm
GWT - enthusiastically.
WNT - burning zeal

And 21 others all going with fervent. So accepting fervent as an acceptable translation is mainstream. Might a less archaic choice (zealous) also be sound? But then G2207 (zeiotes) would need revision as it appears all 7 times in the NASB as zealous.

 

[Van]

Moving to the next Greek word also translated fervent in the NASB, we have G1618 (ektenes)
In the OP I said it meant incessant or incessantly, but upon further review intense or intensely (G1619)

Here are the various translation choices I found in 1 Peter 4:8, G1618.

NIV - deeply
NLT - deep
ESV - earnestly
CSB - constant
CEV - sincerely
HCSB - intense
NHEB - earnest
ABPE - severe
GWT - warmly

A few others picked one of the above, but the rest, 15, picked fervent. However the idea is intense love for others. So in 1 Peter 4:8, we have the adjective, intense love, and in Acts 12:5 we have a different word with the same root, G1619, an adverb which could be translated as intensely praying. Ditto for Luke 22:44 and 1 Peter 1:22.

 

[Van]

Lastly, let us look at James 5:16, while the NASB simply has effective, the KJV and a few like minded others have effective or effectual fervent for G1754, (energeō). So all that needs to be done, as far as fixing the translation to eliminate redundant use of fervent, is to change effective fervent to effective or effectual. This would be consistent with many of the English translations I reviewed.

Now that was not so hard, even by someone lacking the special knowledge deemed necessary by other. Folks, we can all study and share our results, and hopefully if we are off the mark, someone who cares for us and seeks to edify the body will help us.

 

[Van]

Acts 12:5
Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing G1618 of the church unto God for him.

1Peter4:8
And above all things have fervent G1618 charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

The above is a copy of a part of a BLB presentation of G1618. Note that Acts 12:5 is mischaracterized as being in the G1618 family rather than correctly in the G1619 family of words. That was why I wrongly indicated G1618 could be translated adverbially.

The point being, when we study, reviewing more than one source is sometimes necessary to find truth.

 

[Van]

Is the translation word or phrase choice consistent with the historical meaning intended by the original author to the initial audience as reflected by contextual usage both in scripture and in contemporaneous secular writings. Sometimes a word is chosen, say "adoption" that means a person becomes part of a family, when the historical meaning of the word being translated is to obtain the full rights of membership in the family upon reaching the age of maturity. Thus "adoption" fails the test of historical meaning.

 

[Van]

[Edited OP to correct initially posted errors]
In the NASB95 and KJV, several different words are all translated as fervent or fervently. However their historical meanings differ significantly. Thus the distinctions intended by the inspired author have been obliterated.

In Acts of the Apostles 18:25 and Romans 12:11, we have "zeo" (G2204) with a literal meaning of "be hot," and a metaphoric meaning of emotional commitment translated as "fervent." That is certainly consistent with the modern meaning of fervent, i.e. passionate intensity.

However, if we look at 1 Peter 4:8, we find another Greek word, "ektenes" (G1618) which historically means intense and is usually also translated as "fervent." Additionally another Greek word, G1619, is an adverb and is usually translated as fervently, in Acts of the Apostles 12:5, Luke 22:44 and 1 Peter 1:22.

And if you look at other English translations, you will find additional Greek words also translated as fervent or fervently. For example the KJV translates G1754 as effectual fervent at James 5:16.

Would it not be nice if someone translated God's word concordantly, where each word or phrase meaning in the original, was translated distinctively into English. Thus "Hell" would be replaced by Hades and Gehenna.

 

[Van]

Both the KJV and Websters Bible have fervent mind at 2 Corinthians 7:7 for G2205. Most others go with zeal. However, we can find "deep concern" or ardent concern or loyal.

 

[robycop3]

In the NASB95 and KJV, several different words are all translated as fervent or fervently. However their historical meanings differ significantly. Thus the distinctions intended by the inspired author have been obliterated.

In Acts 18:25 and Romans 12:11, we have "zeo" (G2204) with a literal meaning of "hot," and a metaphoric meaning of emotional commitment translated as "fervent." That is certainly consistent with the modern meaning of fervent, i.e. passionate intensity.

However, if we look at 1 Peter 4:8, we find another Greek word, "ektenes" (G1618) which historically means incessant or incessantly also being translated as "fervent."

And if you look at other English translations, you will find additional Greek words also translated as fervent or fervently. For example the KJV translates G1754 as effectual fervent at James 5:16.

Would it not be nice if someone translated God's word concordantly, where each word or phrase meaning in the original, was translated distinctively into English. Thus "Hell" would be replaced by Hades and Gehenna.

Gehenna is hell; hades/sheol is not. The KJV's mistranslation of hades has JESUS going to hell for 3 days & nights, which is utterly blasphemous !

 

[John of Japan]

Gehenna is hell; hades/sheol is not. The KJV's mistranslation of hades has JESUS going to hell for 3 days & nights, which is utterly blasphemous !

Let's tweak this. Hades is polysemous; it has several different meanings, and must be translated by context. Here is a lexicon definition: "ἁδης (literally unseen place); (1) the place of the dead underworld (AC 2.27); (2) usually in the NT as the temporary underworld prison where the souls of the ungodly await the judgment (LU 16.23); (3) personified as following along after Death (RV 6.8)" (Friberg, Friberg & Miller). Definition 3 allows for translating it as "Hell,"

Note that in particular it can be translated "Hell" in Matthew 5:22, 29-30, etc. Notice that in 5:22 "fire" is mentioned--clearly Hell. Luke 16:23-24 also has "flame." Mark 9:43 has fire that will never be quenched. Other examples can be given.

As for Hades being the place of the dead, that is also a clear meaning in other passages, such as 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is "grave" in the KJV. The passage using Hades referring to Christ's deeath (Acts 2:27, 31) are clearly talking about simply death, the grave, not Hell, since physical corruption is the context.

 

[Van]

Let's tweak this. [SNIP}

Note that in particular it can be translated "Hell" in Matthew 5:22, 29-30, etc. Notice that in 5:22 "fire" is mentioned--clearly Hell. Luke 16:23-24 also has "flame." Mark 9:43 has fire that will never be quenched. Other examples can be given.

As for Hades being the place of the dead, that is also a clear meaning in other passages, such as 1 Corinthians 15:55, where it is "grave" in the KJV. The passage using Hades referring to Christ's deeath (Acts 2:27, 31) are clearly talking about simply death, the grave, not Hell, since physical corruption is the context.

Did you think "Hades" appears in Matthew 5:22? No, the word mistranslated as "hell" is Gehenna, a very different place from Hades. Ditto for Matthew 5:29 and 30.

Do you think Luke 16:23-24 refers to the "Gehenna fire?" Nope Here the place is identified as Hades.

Do you think Mark 9:43 refers to Hades? Nope, Gehenna.

Do you think 1 Corinthians 15:55 refers to Gehenna? Nope, Hades.

Do you think Acts 2:27 refers to death as the place where the soul goes? Nope, Hades.

Do you think Acts 2:31 refers to Christ's body being in Hades? Nope

JOJ whole post is fiction, trying to justify mistranslation. Pay no attention, folks.

 

[Yeshua1]

What in the world is an "historical meaning"? Do you mean the meaning in classical Greek? Do you mean the etymology? Some earlier form of koine Greek? In Greek studies (which you eschew) we don't normally use the term "historical meaning."
No, zeo (ζεω) does not mean "hot." The English word is an adjective, but zeo is a verb meaning "I boil" or "I seethe." You have both the part of speech wrong and the meaning wrong.

In this verse the word "fervent" is the participle for zeo. The Greek for the adjective "hot" is actually a different word, zestos (ζεστος). This word can normally mean "boiled," but metaphorically "zealous."


The word "incessant" in English is a noun, but the word "incessantly" is an adverb. So one Greek word cannot mean both grammatically.

You did a little better here.


"Hell" is a perfectly accurate word for hades (ἁδης) if the context is right. And Hades and Gehenna are both transliterations, not translations.

I simply wanted to take the opportunity to rebuke your lack of knowledge here. I hope you take it in stride. "A scorner heareth not rebuke" (Prov. 13:1). Don't be a scorner. Be wise. Your status in the priesthood of the believer allows humility and learning. I am not abandoning the priesthood of the believer simply because I study and learn specialized knowledge. You are completely free to do the same.

I highly recommend you get some "specialized knowledge" and become a Gnostic (in your terms) if you want to pontificate on Greek. You make far too many errors. Forgive me. I'll get off your thread now, and not bother you again. I'll go back to the "Gnosticism" you claim I teach.

always amuses me when Van rebukes Archangel in the Greek on his theology stated, and you in regards to bible translating!

 

[Van]

Did you think "Hades" appears in Matthew 5:22? No, the word mistranslated as "hell" is Gehenna, a very different place from Hades. Ditto for Matthew 5:29 and 30.

Do you think Luke 16:23-24 refers to the "Gehenna fire?" Nope Here the place is identified as Hades.

Do you think Mark 9:43 refers to Hades? Nope, Gehenna.

Do you think 1 Corinthians 15:55 refers to Gehenna? Nope, Hades.

Do you think Acts 2:27 refers to death as the place where the soul goes? Nope, Hades.

Do you think Acts 2:31 refers to Christ's body being in Hades? Nope

In the NT, Hades refers to the temporary holding cell where the souls of the lost go upon physical death, where they are in torment for their sins, until the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[robycop3]

Since I was a child, I've heard from people of different denoms that the lake of fire is hell. I'd heard from a few RCs that the 'torments' area of hades was purgatory, but I've never heard that from a RC priest.

 

[37818]

Do you think Acts 2:27 refers to death as the place where the soul goes? Nope, Hades.

It is interesting to note, after the heaven and earth are gone for the Judgement, Revelation 20:11, the dead being resurrected for the Judgement are resurrected from the stated three places, the sea, death and Hades, Revelation 20:13.

 

[Van]

It is interesting to note, after the heaven and earth are gone for the Judgement, Revelation 20:11, the dead being resurrected for the Judgement are resurrected from the stated three places, the sea, death and Hades, Revelation 20:13.

Yes, this difficulty troubled me too. I concluded the physical bodies are somehow brought out of the sea and out of the land based dead remains place (personified as Death), and are then united with with their human spirit from Hades.

 

[Van]

Since I was a child, I've heard from people of different denoms that the lake of fire is hell. I'd heard from a few RCs that the 'torments' area of hades was purgatory, but I've never heard that from a RC priest.

I think many people (including myself) believe Gehenna is the location of the "Lake of Fire." But not many mainstream Baptists think "purgatory" is anything except false doctrine. Certainly the picture of Hades from Luke 16:19-31 includes torment from high heat. But destruction of the lost soul does not occur in Hades, as the lost go into the Lake of Fire.

 

[robycop3]

And those souls won't be destroyed in the LOF, either.