The Holy Spirit
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The stepping stones of Justification
- Thread starter Van
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You have no idea of why God would place an individual into Christ. None, zip,nada.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
So the difference between the Saved and Damned lies within the INDIVIDUAL PERSON.
God loves both.
Jesus died for both.
The Holy Spirit called both.
Both heard the same equally effective Word (that does not return void).
So the only difference is the merit innate in the person that chooses to believe, making him worthy of saving, as compared to the less worthy inferior person that was not willing to believe.
Is that the difference between a faith that saves and a dead faith (as James talks about)?
The issue, inconceivable to Calvinists, is not why we believe in the gospel, but why God credits our faith, flawed as it must be, as righteousness. They want to deny God's part. How many have post, yes God credits the autonomous faith of individuals, as righteousness. None, zip, nada. They deny Romans 4, lock, stock and barrel.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
That is a Calvinistic (God gives faith) answer, and I agree with it from my personal worldview.
I am trying to understand what the non-Calvinists believe since the discussions tend to go in circles (word > faith > saves) without ever explaining why one man is saved and another is not except to explain that ELECTION is wrong.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I cannot speak for "they",but I can answer for "me".
I acknowledge Romans 4 and that God credits "OUR FAITH" as "righteousness". It says so pretty clearly.
I have some concerns about some of the adjectives you have added to Romans 4.
There is no evidence in Romans 4 that God credits "flawed faith" as righteousness, so the word "flawed" needs to be chewed more before I will be willing to swallow it.
"Autonomous" is another adjective that remains to be proven because "autonomous faith" is not mentioned in Romans 4. You are as guilty of just ASSUMING that your FAITH springs from deep within you, as the Calvinists you criticize have assumed that the faith in Romans 4 springs from deep within God.
So nobody is denying Romans 4 "lock, stock and barrel". Both you and they (and I) are reading Romans 4 through glasses tinted with presuppositions. Each person has a slightly different shade of tint.
Incredible denial.
Does scripture say or suggest God only credits perfect, without flaw faith? Of course not. Such a faith would not need to be credited.
No autonomous faith does not need to be proven, as it is called "his faith, your faith, etc." No, it is instilled faith via irresistible grace that lacks any biblical support.
Yes, each and every Calvinist denies Romans 4, where it says God credits his faith, rather than God instills His faith.
Lets return to our stepping stones that take us across the torrent of confusion:
Number 1 always starts with God. If God did not provide the grace of His revelation, both in what He has made, and the special revelation in His word, we would not even be able to have faith in God, and as Paul referenced, we might have faith in the "unknown god."
1) God reveals Himself to human kind, in two ways.
2) We are exposed to His declaration of the gospel of Christ. Thus without the work of the Holy Spirit, both in the inspired word, and in His leading of witnesses, we would not know what to put our faith in.
3) Some of those exposed to the gospel are unable to understand it, those who are described as the first soil of Matthew 13.
4) Others, understand the message, but do not commit fully, or do not discard their worldly treasures. These are described as the second and third soil of Matthew 13.
5) A "few" understand the message and fully commit, they go "all in" and therefore love God with all their mind, heart and soul.
6) These few are the ones whose faith God credits as righteousness, and are spiritually placed into Christ, thus these "few" are chosen for salvation.
7) Once God gives an individual to Christ, Christ has promised to not cast out, thus our salvation is eternal.
8) Once in Christ, we are justified, made righteous, forgiven, regenerated, made alive, and given the ministry of reconciliation.
The gospel of Christ
One of the claims of false teachers is that humans lack the capacity to "fully commit" to Christ or anything else. However, during WWI, lots of folks went "over the top" and into "no man's land" facing artillery, snipers, and machine-gun nests. Sounds like full commitment to me.
Number 1 always starts with God. If God did not provide the grace of His revelation, both in what He has made, and the special revelation in His word, we would not even be able to have faith in God, and as Paul referenced, we might have faith in the "unknown god."
1) God reveals Himself to human kind, in two ways.
2) We are exposed to His declaration of the gospel of Christ. Thus without the work of the Holy Spirit, both in the inspired word, and in His leading of witnesses, we would not know what to put our faith in.
3) Some of those exposed to the gospel are unable to understand it, those who are described as the first soil of Matthew 13.
4) Others, understand the message, but do not commit fully, or do not discard their worldly treasures. These are described as the second and third soil of Matthew 13.
5) A "few" understand the message and fully commit, they go "all in" and therefore love God with all their mind, heart and soul.
6) These few are the ones whose faith God credits as righteousness, and are spiritually placed into Christ, thus these "few" are chosen for salvation.
7) Once God gives an individual to Christ, Christ has promised to not cast out, thus our salvation is eternal.
8) Once in Christ, we are justified, made righteous, forgiven, regenerated, made alive, and given the ministry of reconciliation.
The gospel of Christ
One of the claims of false teachers is that humans lack the capacity to "fully commit" to Christ or anything else. However, during WWI, lots of folks went "over the top" and into "no man's land" facing artillery, snipers, and machine-gun nests. Sounds like full commitment to me.
Sounds like classic Arminism to me!
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"The soul that sins, it shall die" Ezekial 18:20
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12
Why will you die?
Does anyone know?
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12
Why will you die?
Does anyone know?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Yes.
Unfortunately, you are not in "listening" mode so trying to show you where would fall on deaf ears.
You have predetermined that "faith" must be self-generated by human belief and, therefore, must be imperfect as are all things made by man. Romans 4 DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY STATE THAT! Just as Romans 4 does not specifically state that our faith is GOD GIVEN "faith". To claim that Romans 4 is not explicit about those things which God has not explicitly stated in Romans 4, is not denial (credible or incredible). It is just a statement about what scripture actually says and what it does not.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Because GOD said so.
(I know that I didn't die in spite of ample opportunities that took the life of those around me because God did not allow it. I was certainly no more deserving of life than many others, and frankly much less deserving than most.)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Why did Israel, as a nation, fail?
If the power to believe lies in the people, then why the repeated downward spirals away from God. A few should have been "good soil" and gone "all in" under the Law and many more should have been the second soil and been willing to follow from time to time.
The LAW was to teach us that we could not do it. There was nothing good within us to muster faith from/with. That is why the radical figures of speech for a complete change from an external source ...
- unless you are "BORN AGAIN" ... "Spirit gives birth to spirit" ... one born of the Holy Spirit.
- while you were DEAD, GOD MADE YOU ALIVE ... not of yourself.
- SLAVE to sin or SLAVE to righteousness ... Love COMPELS me
- unless the Father DRAWS
- IMPOSSIBLE to please God
- "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." [Philippians 2:13]
When we were lost in our sins, we were spiritual dead, like the walking dead, and we cannot will ourselves to come alive!
Yet another denial of Romans 4, folks.
Yet another denial of Romans 4, folks.
Yet another you, you, you post. And yet another denial that God credited "his faith."
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