Do Calvinists Affirm Free Will then?

[Reformed1689]

what does the Bible mean, when it specifies of young children;


Deuteronomy 1:39
And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there. And to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

Isaiah 7:15-16
He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.

Jonah 4:11
And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?”

Romans 9:11
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad

You did not answer my question... Instead, as usual, you post verses out of context.

 

[AustinC]

then the Holy Bible is NOT Inerrant!

Explain please.

 

[Reformed1689]

Explain please.

He speaks on emotion, not biblical principle.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You did not answer my question... Instead, as usual, you post verses out of context.

I have quoted from the Infallible Word of Almighty God. IF, what I am saying is not correct, or out of context, then please put them into their context. It seems very clear to me from the 4 passages, that there is a time in the life of all young children, when they are considered by God, to be in the state of "innocence". God only knows the time of this. you are free to argue against the Bible, but there is no other way to understand these verses. If there is, then lets hear it.

 

[Reformed1689]

I have quoted from the Infallible Word of Almighty God. IF, what I am saying is not correct, or out of context, then please put them into their context. It seems very clear to me from the 4 passages, that there is a time in the life of all young children, when they are considered by God, to be in the state of "innocence". God only knows the time of this. you are free to argue against the Bible, but there is no other way to understand these verses. If there is, then lets hear it.

Deut. 1:39 it says they don't know the difference between good and evil. It does not say they are sinless.
Is. 7 says nothing about being sinless. You should read it again.
Jonah 4:11 I don't even know how it is relevant to the discussion.
Romans 9:11 They weren't born yet, so again, irrelevant.

 

[AustinC]

after a lot of huffing and puffing, the Calvinists/Reformed here have told us NOTHING about whether the Bible says that every human being has a "free will", or not!

I have a couple of points that I would like to make

firstly, if humans are born without the freedom to choose between good and evil, right and wrong. Then this makes them non responsible for thier actions.

If, as it is said, that the will of all the non-elect, sinners, are "bound", then who does this "binding"? If by God, then God becomes the author of sins, and ceases to be God.

If by the devil, then how does the devil do this in the human being? does he have the power to render the will of each human being, bound to him, from the womb?

When a person sins, like murders, rapes, adultery, fornication, steals, lies, etc, etc, then they cannot be punished by the Just God for the Bible, as their wills are not free for them to make a choice, as they would be "compelled" by an outside force, like God, or the devil, to simply carry out what they "cause" them to do!

If they are punished for doing something that they have no "control" over, then this makes God to be unjust! Which is anathema!

secondly, if the will of the non-elect has been "bound", so that they cannot "seek the Lord" for their salvation, then, again, as I have shown above, they are not "responsible" for their unbelief, as they CANNOT turn to the Lord for salvation. Then, Bible verses like John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.", and 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him". Are unjust, as God says that He is going to punish these for "unbelief", and "disobedience", which they are NOT responsible for, as they are "bound" by an outside force, perventing them from "believing and obeying". And, since God gives "saving faith" to only those He has "called", which are the "elect", then, to damn these for not "believing and obeying", which they are not "able" to in the first place, makes God to be unjust!

How can any person be punished for actions that they are not responsible for? How can a person who murders someone, whose "will" has been "bound", be punished for their crime? How can God send anyone to eternal punishment, if they could not "choose" whether to follow the Lord or not; or, that the Lord has no interest in their salvation? This makes God to be very unfair, and not the God as shown in the Holy Bible!

Humans are not bound by an outside force. They are bound by their own sin. They are slaves to sin.

John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Romans 6:19-22
I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

Paul goes on to answer your complaint.

Romans 9:19-24
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

sbw, God has answered your complaints. Either you accept what God tells you or you keep fighting against God.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Deut. 1:39 it says they don't know the difference between good and evil. It does not say they are sinless.
Is. 7 says nothing about being sinless. You should read it again.
Jonah 4:11 I don't even know how it is relevant to the discussion.
Romans 9:11 They weren't born yet, so again, irrelevant.

If someone does not know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. What does this make them. The text in Romans says that the babies in the womb were without sin. This is what the Bible actually says not me!

 

[AustinC]

If someone does not know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. What does this make them. The text in Romans says that the babies in the womb were without sin. This is what the Bible actually says not me!

Let's look at the text:

Romans 9:10-13

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

The text says they had not done either good or bad. It does not say "they were sinless."

Paul answers this in Romans 5:12-15.

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

The answer to your question is...it makes them sinners because Adam sinned and the corrupt nature of Adam is within all mankind.

Like "HeirofSalvation" you are teaching Pelagian heresy which the church, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, has condemned.

 

[Van]

I didn't redefine anything Van.

Trying to discuss anything with Calvinism advocates is like throwing a ball at a pitch-back.

 

[Van]

How about you interact with my post?

Same to ya, Mr. Pitchback.

 

[Iconoclast]

then the Holy Bible is NOT Inerrant!

Sure it is. Not once does it acknowledge the false philosophy of free will existing...much less man having a free will.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have quoted from the Infallible Word of Almighty God. IF, what I am saying is not correct, or out of context, then please put them into their context. It seems very clear to me from the 4 passages, that there is a time in the life of all young children, when they are considered by God, to be in the state of "innocence". God only knows the time of this. you are free to argue against the Bible, but there is no other way to understand these verses. If there is, then lets hear it.

This is a direct denial once again of the biblically revealed facts of the fall into sin and death.
Failure here leads to a list of errors that cannot be recovered from.Rom3:23.
You should pause and take time to understand the fall into sin and death

 

[Iconoclast]

If someone does not know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. What does this make them. The text in Romans says that the babies in the womb were without sin. This is what the Bible actually says not me!

Here is the defective reasoning..
Psalm 51:5 is part of the cure available.All sinned at one point in time.
Not only are you wrong on this issue but you compound it by falsely declaring the bible supports your error.

 

[Yeshua1]

Redefining the meaning of seeking to enter the kingdom as not seeking God is complete rubbish, and your ad nauseum regurgitation of rubbish demonstrates your disdain for truth.

The desires of the lost sinner would be to avoid the narrow road at all costs!

 

[Reformed1689]

Same to ya, Mr. Pitchback.

I did.

 

[Reformed1689]

If someone does not know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. What does this make them. The text in Romans says that the babies in the womb were without sin. This is what the Bible actually says not me!

If I do not know that sex outside of marriage is wrong and I have sex outside of marriage, does that mean I did not sin? Your argument is absurd.

 

[Yeshua1]

First, I have only read a few paragraphs of Calvin's writings so I am not a Calvinist in the strict sense.
I am a Christian who sees in the Bible that God chooses, therefore I believe that God chooses. I see that God elects, therefore I believe God elects. I see that God predestines, therefore I believe that God predestines.

I see that in many areas of my life, I have the capacity to choose, therefore, I believe I can choose. I also know that while I would like to choose anything I want, I know that this is not possible. I do not have the capacity.

For example, I may wish to choose to be an NBA basketball player who is the teams center. However, I don't have the capacity to choose that field of work. I am short and old. Even more so, I am not given the right to make that decision. Someone else is required to make that decision and so far, over all these years of wishing, no one has chosen me. I am not given that capacity to choose. I don't have the skills and the team owner hasn't chosen me.

God, as the Creator of all things, says that he determines the sheep from the goats. He chooses his sheep and gives them to Jesus who cares for the sheep. I can't do anything about it. It's not my right and I don't have the capacity to determine whether I get to be a sheep or a goat.

When I consider free-will, I consider what choice we are talking about. When discussing what I eat for dinner, I can pick from the options in my cupboard. When discussing my career as an NBA basketball player, I am at the mercy of the one more powerful than me to determine my fate. Sadly, my fate is to have a different career.

So it is with our salvation. My wickedness and wretchedness makes it impossible for me to choose to be a child of the King. I am at the mercy of the King. If He chooses to adopt me, I gain the inheritance of the Kingdom. If He chooses not to adopt me, I live out my life with no hope of the Kingdom. Will he graciously choose me or not? There is nothing I can offer Him that would prove my worthiness. My best is as if I was a filthy rag. I sit at his feet defeated by my sin. Dependent upon the King's choice. Will he extend grace or the sword? I tremble at the thought. Oh Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Praise God, He has extended His amazing grace to me and given me faith to believe.

That's what I believe about free-will. I have no idea if Calvin saw it the same way.

We know that our salvation was granted to us by the Lord choosing to save us apart from anything that we could ever "contribute", but what is the reason non Cals see why God choose to save them?

 

[Van]

The desires of the lost sinner would be to avoid the narrow road at all costs!

Here yet again we have a Calvinist proclaiming the opposite of scripture because Jesus said "many" will seek to find the narrow road. (Luke 13:24)

Calvinist redefine the meaning of words, which means Calvinists can affirm Free Will, and have it mean Free only to choose outside the will of God, thus consistent with the Bondage of the Will.

However, people do seek God, as the people of Matthew 23:13 were seeking to enter His kingdom, and people do put their faith in Christ, as the people chosen for salvation in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 did.

 

[Yeshua1]

after a lot of huffing and puffing, the Calvinists/Reformed here have told us NOTHING about whether the Bible says that every human being has a "free will", or not!

I have a couple of points that I would like to make

firstly, if humans are born without the freedom to choose between good and evil, right and wrong. Then this makes them non responsible for thier actions. If, as it is said, that the will of all the non-elect, sinners, are "bound", then who does this "binding"? If by God, then God becomes the author of sins, and ceases to be God. If by the devil, then how does the devil do this in the human being? does he have the power to render the will of each human being, bound to him, from the womb? When a person sins, like murders, rapes, adultery, fornication, steals, lies, etc, etc, then they cannot be punished by the Just God for the Bible, as their wills are not free for them to make a choice, as they would be "compelled" by an outside force, like God, or the devil, to simply carry out what they "cause" them to do! If they are punished for doing something that they have no "control" over, then this makes God to be unjust! Which is anathema!

secondly, if the will of the non-elect has been "bound", so that they cannot "seek the Lord" for their salvation, then, again, as I have shown above, they are not "responsible" for their unbelief, as they CANNOT turn to the Lord for salvation. Then, Bible verses like John 3:18, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.", and 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him". Are unjust, as God says that He is going to punish these for "unbelief", and "disobedience", which they are NOT responsible for, as they are "bound" by an outside force, perventing them from "believing and obeying". And, since God gives "saving faith" to only those He has "called", which are the "elect", then, to damn these for not "believing and obeying", which they are not "able" to in the first place, makes God to be unjust!

How can any person be punished for actions that they are not responsible for? How can a person who murders someone, whose "will" has been "bound", be punished for their crime? How can God send anyone to eternal punishment, if they could not "choose" whether to follow the Lord or not; or, that the Lord has no interest in their salvation? This makes God to be very unfair, and not the God as shown in the Holy Bible!

Calvinists do not say that we cannot decide and choose to do right or wrong things, or that we cannot seek after a god of our own making, One that saves by good works, but that we cannot seek to come to the true God who saves by grace alone, as our very natures cannot grasp that truth, nor even desire to do such!

 

[Yeshua1]

If someone does not know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong. What does this make them. The text in Romans says that the babies in the womb were without sin. This is what the Bible actually says not me!

David said that he was conceived in sin, so think he is right!