Isaiah 66!
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Pre-Mil Fallacy
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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Yes. The NT also calls Jesus a lamb. So one must understand the symbolism.
Nope. Be specific. What's the point of the Millennium?
Where does it say that?
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
God the Father is not going to allow the final word from the mouths of Israel's leaders about His Son to be, "We have no king but Caesar."
John 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
God the Father is going to glorify Himself and His Son by bringing that nation as a nation to acknowledge that Jesus of Nazareth was and is His Messianic King whom they rejected. Jesus Christ will be glorified by the whole world as God's anointed King who will rule with a rod of iron from Jerusalem for a thousand years.
John 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.
God the Father is going to glorify Himself and His Son by bringing that nation as a nation to acknowledge that Jesus of Nazareth was and is His Messianic King whom they rejected. Jesus Christ will be glorified by the whole world as God's anointed King who will rule with a rod of iron from Jerusalem for a thousand years.
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Right, no actual 1000 year reign on earth, is not against Millennialism. By the time they get done redefining words, nothing means something or vice versa.
To publish more books!... CHA... CHING!... These authors laugh all the way to the bank... This was NEVER taught in my church, first started by a Jesuit Priest... Time for a history lesson
Manuel De Lacunza differed from the typical interpretation of the "Metal Man" of Daniel 2, which had been given in previous centuries by Ireneaus, Hippolytus and the Reformers, by stating that the kingdoms of Babylon and Persia constituted the head of gold, the Macedonian Empire as the chest and arms of silver, the bronze thighs as Roman, "but the ten toed legs, the Romano-Gothic professedly Christian kingdoms of 'divided' Western Europe."[31] Froom viewed Lacunza's explication of the four beasts of Daniel 7 as "novel and unsatisfactory. Noting the usual explanation of Daniel 7 as paralleling the kindgoms of Daniel 2, with the ten horns as the ten kingdoms, he proposes another explanation. They are construed as four religions—idolatry, Mohammedanism, pseudo-Christianity, and anti-Christian deism, which is already unfolding itself to the world in the French Revolution."[32] His perceptions of the second advent of Christ were largely responsible for the formation of British Premillennialism, which then formed the basis of Futurist Dispensationalism under Anglo-Irish theologian John Nelson Darby,who had access to Irving and further developed Irving's theology. Under Darby, Ben Ezra developed into a comprehensive hermeneutic, in which a literal interpretation is given to theology and eschatology.
"Lacunza's developed system was introduced to the European Protestant English world by a Presbyterian Pastor, Edward Irving. It was popularized by a former Anglican, John Nelson Darby. It was systematized by Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843–1921). Thus from one man, Lacunza, the system became the standard for Christian thought for many generations … The influence of the Plymouth Brethren (who adapted the system, c. 1830) upon Christianity after the late 1800s is readily apparent as one reads later Baptist creeds, confessions and messages … While many good, sincere people claim to be Christians of various stripes (Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal &c.), in reality they cling tenaciously to a common system having deep roots in Ben-Ezra. Though the view had been offered several times before, the successful offering was a 1790 manuscript published by Rome in 1812. In 1827, it was translated and published in English by Edward Irving. To Lacunza's basic system, Irving added a 'pre-trib rapture,' an idea he may have obtained from a Scottish lass, Margaret Macdonald. However, it was under Darby's name (Darbyism) and skillful guidance that the system spread over the whole earth. It became the foundation for the Plymouth Brethrenism. In the early 1900s, it was codified by Scofield. Irving's system was adapted by various denominations with only minor differences among them."[33]
Manuel De Lacunza And Francisco Ribera, two Jesuit Priest introduced a lot of this end time doctrine some Baptist believe, you want to go on believing this?... Don't take my word for it, check it our for yourself!... Brother Glen
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The whole book of Revelation is not symbolism. That's ridiculous.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
It is better to interpret the Bible literally unless it is obviously not literal. It's easy (for the most part) to tell what parts are symbolism and what parts are literal. There is no indication that the 1,000 year reign is symbolic.
Well sure there is. I'm not going to argue the point. If you want a good treatment of Revelation, I would recommend "More Than Conquerors" by William Hendriksen. He doesn't present a novel view, but merely produced a readable exposition.
I abandoned Premillennialism long ago, and Dispensational Premillennialism long before that. Not because I was taught an Amillennial view, but because things weren't jiving with the epistles.
And so that's what I will argue about. I may not be able to convince you of the symbolic nature and parallelism of the Revelation, but I can sure rebut every argument for Premillennialism by showing how antithetical to the Gospel is the hope of an earthly kingdom.
So, maybe you'll answer the question that our blurbby friend is avoiding.
What is the point of the Millennium?
No, it is on earth, just not of it. It's not a literal thousand years. Like the Beast isn't a real beast; the Mark not an actual trio of sixes, plagues aren't stored in real vials, real trumpets aren't sounding, Jesus isn't holding a sword in His mouth.
You get the picture...well...maybe you don't, but literate men will.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
Amillennialists do not handle properly key passages such as this one, which talks about the new heavens and the new earth, but yet it is still a period in which there are sinners and death still occurs.
There will be a literal time on the earth when a hundred year old person who dies will be considered a child. This is not true now and will not be true in the eternal state where there will be no death.
There will still be sinners in this period so this is not the eternal state. There will be infants and old men in this period so it is not the eternal state. Neither is it what is true today because children do not live to be a hundred years old.
In this intermediate earthly kingdom where there are still children, sinners, and death, the animal kingdom will be in harmony in a way that is not true today. This passage is not talking about the eternal state nor is it talking about today.
There will be an intermediate, earthly kingdom in which Jesus of Nazareth will rule from Jerusalem for a thousand years as the Messianic King over the nation of Israel and over all the earth.
Amillennialists do not handle properly key passages such as this one, which talks about the new heavens and the new earth, but yet it is still a period in which there are sinners and death still occurs.
There will be a literal time on the earth when a hundred year old person who dies will be considered a child. This is not true now and will not be true in the eternal state where there will be no death.
There will still be sinners in this period so this is not the eternal state. There will be infants and old men in this period so it is not the eternal state. Neither is it what is true today because children do not live to be a hundred years old.
In this intermediate earthly kingdom where there are still children, sinners, and death, the animal kingdom will be in harmony in a way that is not true today. This passage is not talking about the eternal state nor is it talking about today.
There will be an intermediate, earthly kingdom in which Jesus of Nazareth will rule from Jerusalem for a thousand years as the Messianic King over the nation of Israel and over all the earth.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
mentions, "a thousand years".
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
There are 7 Visions in Revelation.
Each Vision includes a reference to Jesus' Ministry, prior to or at His Ascension.
Each Vision mentions The End of The World, in The Consummation, and The One and Only Return of Jesus Christ, referencing The End of Time, to Resurrect, Judge, and to Create The New Heavens and The New Earth.
The Seven Sections of Scripture which each contains,
A.) A Vision, B.) The Ascension, & C.) The End of The World is to be read and interpreted, as covering The SAME PERIOD of Time.
Each Vision covers the Period of Time between Jesus' Ascension and The One and Only Return of Jesus and The End of Time.
Once this pattern for interpretation is seen, it would make no more sense to read The Gospels straight through and try to reconcile 4 births and 4 deaths of 'a messiah'(?)
It would also determine that 'reading the Revelation straight through' and inventing 'mill' illusions is the work of a novice in The End Times.
Every time. There is no escaping what God Has actually Revealed, in opposition to pure rash speculation.
Each Vision includes a reference to Jesus' Ministry, prior to or at His Ascension.
Each Vision mentions The End of The World, in The Consummation, and The One and Only Return of Jesus Christ, referencing The End of Time, to Resurrect, Judge, and to Create The New Heavens and The New Earth.
The Seven Sections of Scripture which each contains,
A.) A Vision, B.) The Ascension, & C.) The End of The World is to be read and interpreted, as covering The SAME PERIOD of Time.
Each Vision covers the Period of Time between Jesus' Ascension and The One and Only Return of Jesus and The End of Time.
Once this pattern for interpretation is seen, it would make no more sense to read The Gospels straight through and try to reconcile 4 births and 4 deaths of 'a messiah'(?)
It would also determine that 'reading the Revelation straight through' and inventing 'mill' illusions is the work of a novice in The End Times.
Every time. There is no escaping what God Has actually Revealed, in opposition to pure rash speculation.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Honestly it is to show the strength and might of God and his glory.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Exactly, it gives a very specific number. What reason is there to believe that is symbolic?
Um....the genre, maybe?
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