Individual Election Revisited

[Reformed1689]

Already did that rodeo. And guess where I went? To the scriptures. I know, so novel of me.

Yeah and the Scriptures don't say what you say they say.

 

[George Antonios]

the Bible does not say God chose based on what He knew someone would do.

Of course not. I did not say that. He chose based on what someone did (believe the gospel) not would do. The choosing is always in time in scriptures. It's just that he knew that person would believe. Nuance.

 

[George Antonios]

Yeah and the Scriptures don't say what you say they say.

We had a thread about that. Live to fight another day Dave.

 

[Reformed1689]

Of course not. I did not say that. He chose based on what someone did (believe the gospel) not would do. The choosing is always in time in scriptures. It's just that he knew that person would believe. Nuance.

Except that's not what Scripture states. You read that into it.

 

[Reformed1689]

We had a thread about that. Live to fight another day Dave.

I will fight for the truth all day every day.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The issue is that foreknew does not mean foreknowledge. Those are not the same thing. Go to the Greek.

Here's the BDAG entry I added emphasis to the relevant portion.:

προγινώσκω (Eur., X., Pla. et al.; BGU 1141, 39 [14 B.C.]; Wsd)
2 aor. προέγνων, ptc. προγνούς. Pass.:
• aor. 3 sg. προεγνώσθη Wsd 18:6;
• pf. ptc. προεγνωσμένος;
• plpf. 3 sg. προέγνωστο (Just., D. 70, 5)
① to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth. (Philo, Somn. 1, 2; Jos., Vi. 106; Tat. 8, 4) affliction Hs 7:5.
• Abs. (Jos., Ant. 2, 86) προγινώσκοντες since you know this (i.e. what the context makes clear) in advance 2 Pt 3:17.
• Of God (Alex. Aphr., An. p. 1, 7 Br. τὰ μέλλοντα, Fat. 30 p. 200, 29; Just.) πάντα Hm 4, 3, 4.
• —Closely connected is the idea of choice that suggests foreknowledge
② choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29.
• τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2 (EWeber, D. Problem der Heilsgesch. nach Ro 9–11, 1911; THoppe, D. Idee d. Heilsgesch. b. Pls 1926; FMaier, Israel in d. Heilsgesch. nach Ro 9–11, 1929; EvDobschütz, Prädestination: StKr 106, ’35, 9–19; JMunck, Christus u. Israel: Ro 9–11, ’56; EDinkler, Prädestination bei Paulus, GDehn Festschr., ’57, 61–102; s. also on προορίζω).
• Pass. of Christ προεγνωσμένος πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου 1 Pt 1:20.
• —Know from time past (Jos., Bell. 6, 8) προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν Ac 26:5.—DELG s.v. γιγνώσκω.
• M-M. TW.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 866.

I just love it when the reformed turn to the Greek to support their theories, 99% of the time they misunderstand what is said, because they don't themselves know any Greek!

So here we have the Greek verb "προγινώσκω", which is a compound word, from "προ" "γινώσκω", the former meaning "before", and the latter, "to know". This is to have "foreknowledge" of anything that is to happen. I have checked BDAG under "γινώσκω", and cannot find a single instance where they say it means "choose"! What they have done in Romans 8:29, is to apply theology to the actual meaning of the Greek word, which has ZERO to do with any CHOOSING!

So your invitation to "go to the Greek", has backfired!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I will fight for the truth all day every day.

yeah, like the nonsense that you quote in #38!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Rubbish...everyone believing..vs15 and verse16

"For God SO LOVES the entire human race, that He sent His One and only Son, that whosoever out of this human race, who believes in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, will not be lost"

It is because of God's MUCH love for the entire human race, that He sent The Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, to die for ALL of them. However, it is CONDITIONAL to BELIEVING, that any of these can be saved. It is something that they had to DO. This is the plain Gospel Message, and NOT the one as presented by the Reformed/Calvinist.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

There is no other Calvinistic alternative to read Ephesians 1:4. You were in him before the foundation of the world.

Really? I don't think so! We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, but we are not saved until we believe.
I think Isaiah 12:1-3 is helpful in understanding this, but if you want to discuss it further, I'm up for that.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Benjamin Keach.

That is odd. I have read some of Keach's work and regard him as being very orthodox. His Marrow of True Justification is one of the best works on that subject. He was also one of the compilers of the 1689 Baptist Confession which does not support Justification from Eternity.

 

[Dave G]

That is odd. I have read some of Keach's work and regard him as being very orthodox. His Marrow of True Justification is one of the best works on that subject. He was also one of the compilers of the 1689 Baptist Confession which does not support Justification from Eternity.

Look at the OP again...
At the very end of the first post, it says, " Based on the valid parts of "A Golden Mine Opened" pp. 169-175, 1694 edition."

If you have the book, read the pages in question, then the contents of the first post.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Look at the OP again...
At the very end of the first post, it says, " Based on the valid parts of "A Golden Mine Opened" pp. 169-175, 1694 edition."

If you have the book, read the pages in question, then the contents of the first post.

Ah! That might well explain it, though I don't have that particular book.

 

[Dave G]

Ah! That might well explain it, though I don't have that particular book.

Compare the contents of the first post with this:

An Election of Particular Persons, Benjamin Keach | The Reformed Reader

 

[Reformed1689]

"For God SO LOVES the entire human race, that He sent His One and only Son, that whosoever out of this human race, who believes in Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, will not be lost"

It is because of God's MUCH love for the entire human race, that He sent The Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, to die for ALL of them. However, it is CONDITIONAL to BELIEVING, that any of these can be saved. It is something that they had to DO. This is the plain Gospel Message, and NOT the one as presented by the Reformed/Calvinist.

So you do believe in a works based salvation? Noted.

 

[Reformed1689]

Look at the OP again...
At the very end of the first post, it says, " Based on the valid parts of "A Golden Mine Opened" pp. 169-175, 1694 edition."

If you have the book, read the pages in question, then the contents of the first post.

It is typical the ones who try to discredit what Scripture plainly teaches. They take Scripture out of context, and they take commentaries out of context.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So you do believe in a works based salvation? Noted.

how about responding to your Greek evidence?

 

[Reformed1689]

how about responding to your Greek evidence?

I already gave Greek evidence. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I already gave Greek evidence. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

WOW, just WOW, you cannot even be humble enough to admit that the lexicon and you are 100% WRONG!

 

[Reformed1689]

WOW, just WOW, you cannot even be humble enough to admit that the lexicon and you are 100% WRONG!

Because we aren't. I can't believe you are arrogant and stubborn enough to ignore facts.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Because we aren't. I can't believe you are arrogant and stubborn enough to ignore facts.

It is VERY CLEAR, that you do NOT know any Greek, other than Strongs, etc. Prove what I have said in # 46 to be wrong. If you cannot, then move on like a man!