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Is this guaranteed true claim really true?

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Michael Hollner, who may now be a poster at this forum, claimed: “We strive for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth” (King James Only Debate, p. 174, 2018 edition). Concerning his own book, Michael Hollner declared: “The truth is going to be released in this book” (p. 19). Michael Hollner asserted: “All I want is the truth, as should you, and I guarantee you, that nothing else but the truth is going to be presented in this book” (p. 31, 2021 edition).

Without providing any documentation or sound evidence to back his claim, Michael Hollner claimed: "Remember, the 47 scholars appointed by King James all had to come to the same conclusion for every word in the Bible. Forty-seven men all had to agree on 783,820 words (in seven years), a most difficult and historic task" (King James Only Debate, p. 141).

Since this author in effect guaranteed the truth of what he wrote or presented in his 2021 edition, can he prove his above two statements to be true?

What is the source for this claim?

Were there 783,820 words in the 1611 edition of the KJV or is that perhaps the count of words in a post-1900 KJV edition?

Can this author provide any documented statements from all 47 men to back up this assertion?

Is this author unaware that there is historical evidence from the 1600's that would contradict this unproven assertion? One of the KJV translators is reported to have made statements that contradict what was claimed in the statements in bold above.

Most present post-1900 KJV editions have over 150 whole words that were not found in the 1611 edition so how could those 47 men have come to the same conclusion on words that were not even in the 1611? Does that verifiable fact contradict the above quoted claim?

Does this author possibly ignore the fact that a revision committee of twelve made changes and revisions to the work of the six committees without getting any known approval from all 47 for their revisions?
The six committees in three different locations had already finished their translating work, and all those 47 men were no longer around to give their approval or non-approval to the revisions made in 1609 or 1610 to their work.
Can this author provide any historical record that says that all 47 men met together after the work of the revision committee and voted to approve every word in the 1611 edition?

If the two KJV translators that were among the four editors who made changes to the 1611 edition in the 1638 Cambridge edition had come to the same conclusion concerning every word, why did they make changes to them in 1638?

There is also no known evidence that Miles Smith and Bishop Thomas Bilson who were the co-editors of the 1611 KJV got approval from all 47 for any editing and changes that they made. Bishop Thomas Bilson was not even one of the KJV translators (he is not listed on the lists of translators), and he may have made some changes which none of the 47 approved.
 

SGO

Well-Known Member
Why this preemptive strike using his words from another source, not the book in question?
Why not wait and read the book and then you will have plenty of fodder to attack instead of using your own presuppositions.
Or do you just want to discourage people and turn them against it based on your word?
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why not wait and read the book and then you will have plenty of fodder to attack instead of using your own presuppositions.

I read the book The King James Only Debate by Michael Hollner and quoted from it.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Michael Hollner, who may now be a poster at this forum, claimed: “We strive for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth” (King James Only Debate, p. 174, 2018 edition). Concerning his own book, Michael Hollner declared: “The truth is going to be released in this book” (p. 19). Michael Hollner asserted: “All I want is the truth, as should you, and I guarantee you, that nothing else but the truth is going to be presented in this book” (p. 31, 2021 edition).

Without providing any documentation or sound evidence to back his claim, Michael Hollner claimed: "Remember, the 47 scholars appointed by King James all had to come to the same conclusion for every word in the Bible. Forty-seven men all had to agree on 783,820 words (in seven years), a most difficult and historic task" (King James Only Debate, p. 141).

Since this author in effect guaranteed the truth of what he wrote or presented in his 2021 edition, can he prove his above two statements to be true?

What is the source for this claim?

Were there 783,820 words in the 1611 edition of the KJV or is that perhaps the count of words in a post-1900 KJV edition?

Can this author provide any documented statements from all 47 men to back up this assertion?

Is this author unaware that there is historical evidence from the 1600's that would contradict this unproven assertion? One of the KJV translators is reported to have made statements that contradict what was claimed in the statements in bold above.

Most present post-1900 KJV editions have over 150 whole words that were not found in the 1611 edition so how could those 47 men have come to the same conclusion on words that were not even in the 1611? Does that verifiable fact contradict the above quoted claim?

Does this author possibly ignore the fact that a revision committee of twelve made changes and revisions to the work of the six committees without getting any known approval from all 47 for their revisions?
The six committees in three different locations had already finished their translating work, and all those 47 men were no longer around to give their approval or non-approval to the revisions made in 1609 or 1610 to their work.
Can this author provide any historical record that says that all 47 men met together after the work of the revision committee and voted to approve every word in the 1611 edition?

If the two KJV translators that were among the four editors who made changes to the 1611 edition in the 1638 Cambridge edition had come to the same conclusion concerning every word, why did they make changes to them in 1638?

There is also no known evidence that Miles Smith and Bishop Thomas Bilson who were the co-editors of the 1611 KJV got approval from all 47 for any editing and changes that they made. Bishop Thomas Bilson was not even one of the KJV translators (he is not listed on the lists of translators), and he may have made some changes which none of the 47 approved.
How can that be true, since known that the Kjv added words not found in TR, took some in from Vulgate, and also had final revision to make kjv more "Anglican: in say baptism, so how could all be in agreement?
 

SGO

Well-Known Member
Well I suppose it would be easy to berate me or anyone else who claims to read any translation that is "the word of God",
but then is God a liar when He says through the prophet Isaiah and the Apostle Peter, "The word of our God shall stand/endureth for ever"?
Isaiah 40:8, 1 Peter 1:25
That statement has to be qualified in some way to make it true for today, right?
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The word of God that stood and endured for ever before 1611 is not identical to the 1611 edition of the KJV with its errors introduced by men.

Isaiah 40:8 and 1 Peter 1:25 were and are true. These two verses were true before 1611 and are still true today.

Just as the pre-1611 English Bibles are the word of God translated into English, the 1611 KJV is also the word of God translated into English, and post-1611 English Bibles are the word of God translated into English.

The 1611 edition of the KJV has been revised, changed, altered, and corrected in later editions of the KJV so it has not stood and endured 100% identically the same for ever in the changed or revised editions.
 
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SGO

Well-Known Member
Do you have the word of God?

So if they all have errors then God lied when He said thorough Isaiah, "the word of our God shall stand for ever." (Isaiah 40:8) or then you could say it was Isaiah who lied.

Or even further, to soften the blow, "No bible is the word of God because none meet my definition of perfection. I can prove it because I have the originals."
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure; he is a shield unto them that put their trust in them.
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Some attempt to add to God's words opinions that He has not stated. God has not said that imperfect men could not make mistakes in copying the Scriptures, in printing the Scriptures, and in translating the Scriptures. God gave instructions concerning the Scriptures that suggest the possibility that men could add words, could omit words, or could change words, which would indicate that the copying of the Scriptures was not by the process of supernatural inspiration. If copies could only be made by inspiration, there would have been no need for those instructions and there would be no textual differences in the copies.

Errors introduced by men are not pure, but every word of God is pure.

Words added by men are not pure words of God, and it is a fact that the KJV has many words added by men.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you have the word of God?

So if they all have errors then God lied when He said thorough Isaiah, "the word of our God shall stand for ever." (Isaiah 40:8) or then you could say it was Isaiah who lied.

Or even further, to soften the blow, "No bible is the word of God because none meet my definition of perfection. I can prove it because I have the originals."
Did God have the Word of the Lord in English before the Kjv? What about non English translations? was the Vulgate His word?
 

SGO

Well-Known Member
H
Did God have the Word of the Lord in English before the Kjv? What about non English translations? was the Vulgate His word?

We have it now unless you want to get into your time machine, go back, and get saved by hearing the real, real, real, originals (which would be translated by God for you).

Is your translation the originals because only the originals are inspired?
 

ad finitum

Active Member
Suppose, for the sake of argument, we could have a new audio Bible, re-inspired into the contemporary English language directly from the Mind of God and spoken into a recording by Jesus Christ Himself.

Would it stop people from quoting it out of context to mean whatever it is they prefer to believe?

So what does it matter what translation is "better" or allegedly "more authentic" or "more authorized"? Is anybody obeying any of it that is actually clear in all translations?
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
H


We have it now unless you want to get into your time machine, go back, and get saved by hearing the real, real, real, originals (which would be translated by God for you).

Is your translation the originals because only the originals are inspired?
My translations are Nas/Esv/Nkjv/Kjv and all of them are the English word of God to me!
 

Logos1560

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Or even further, to soften the blow, "No bible is the word of God because none meet my definition of perfection. I can prove it because I have the originals."

KJV-only posters again attempt to put words in the mouths of others that they do not state.

KJV-only advocates have failed to prove that the 1611 KJV meets God's definition of perfection.

The Scriptures teach that words added by men are not given by inspiration of God while KJV-only advocates try to suggest that they are.
 

SGO

Well-Known Member
My translations are Nas/Esv/Nkjv/Kjv and all of them are the English word of God to me!

If they are good for you that is great.

If those translations are the word of God why aren't you trying to convince others of their worthiness to be read only as the word of God?

Can you say those translations/word of God are inspired?

You know most of them say more or less in English that all scripture is given by inspiration of God.
2 Timothy 3:16

If you say, "Nope, only the originals are inspired" why do none of your translations say that?
 

SGO

Well-Known Member
KJV-only posters again attempt to put words in the mouths of others that they do not state.

KJV-only advocates have failed to prove that the 1611 KJV meets God's definition of perfection.

The Scriptures teach that words added by men are not given by inspiration of God while KJV-only advocates try to suggest that they are.


Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whatsoever thou art that judgest:
for wherein thou judgest another,
thou condemnest thyself;
for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Romans 2:1
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If they are good for you that is great.

If those translations are the word of God why aren't you trying to convince others of their worthiness to be read only as the word of God?

Can you say those translations/word of God are inspired?

You know most of them say more or less in English that all scripture is given by inspiration of God.
2 Timothy 3:16

If you say, "Nope, only the originals are inspired" why do none of your translations say that?
I can with confidence point any here to use those , and know they would be reading the word of the Lord to them in English!
 
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