Attn: Pastors

[Southern Fried Baptist]

If you are using a group like Docent to prepare your sermons, you need to immediately let your congregation know.

Laypeople pay pastors to prayerfully study the word of God to bring messages to the listeners. Not copy someone else work. We can pay actors for that.

This is astonishing what is going on in the SBC right now. Unfortunately most congregants don’t follow Christian news and are easily duped by this kind of stuff.

Thank goodness for Justin Peters shouting from the rooftop about this. And this is coming from an IFB.

 

[Salty]

Actually, I have never heard of Docent

and No - I have no plans to make plans to use such services.

 

[Revmitchell]

Never heard of it and the op is vague.

 

[Ziggy]

I remember back in the day when various "Minister's Manual" publications (e.g. Doran's) existed, some even published by Zondervan as I recall. They provided busy pastors with sermon material for every Sunday morning and evening and Wednesday night for the entire year — not just outlines but in paragraph form!

Never used one myself, however, since I thought it the height of laziness to let someone else tell you what to preach and when to preach it.

 

[Salty]

I remember back in the day when various "Minister's Manual" publications (e.g. Doran's) existed, some even published by Zondervan as I recall. They provided busy pastors with sermon material for every Sunday morning and evening and Wednesday night for the entire year — not just outlines but in paragraph form!

Never used one myself, however, since I thought it the height of laziness to let someone else tell you what to preach and when to preach it.

Similar to Cliff Notes????
CliffsNotes - Wikipedia

 

[Ziggy]

"Similar to Cliff Notes????"

Except that the annual volumes totally changed to a totally "new" series of messages every year.

 

[rlvaughn]

If you are using a group like Docent to prepare your sermons, you need to immediately let your congregation know.

Actually, I have never heard of Docent.

Never heard of it and the op is vague.

docent, noun. 1. (in certain universities and colleges) a member of the teaching staff immediately below professorial rank. 2. a person who acts as a guide, typically on a voluntary basis, in a museum, art gallery, zoo, etc..
(The second usage is the one I have been aware of. We have a group of docents (old ladies, all) who run the Old University museum in Nacogdoches.

We can pay actors for that.

I have known a few preacher I thought seemed to be more like actors than preachers.

 

[rlvaughn]

I remember back in the day when various "Minister's Manual" publications (e.g. Doran's) existed, some even published by Zondervan as I recall. They provided busy pastors with sermon material for every Sunday morning and evening and Wednesday night for the entire year — not just outlines but in paragraph form!

It is good to be aware that copying or using the material of others is not something new. Probably just much more noticeable and comparable in the internet world. As I mentioned on another thread, when I was a young preacher it was common for preachers to put their outlines in booklets and encourage young preachers to buy and use them (may still be common). Also, I am aware of preachers who are members of or subscribe to online services for sermon material (not sure just how it works). And there are resources like this one. Some may just be looking for ideas, but I am sure others are just regurgitating what they find.

On the other hand, we all need not be too heady and high-minded, as even in our own study we are learning from others, and pass on what we learned. Just yesterday I was searching on the radio for someone other than John MacArthur and Charles Stanley, and ran across my old friend J. Vernon McGee. He was driving the Bible Bus through Matthew chapter 2 and mentioned that when Herold demanded where Jesus would be born, the priests and scribes didn't have to hunt for it -- they knew. I have mentioned that many times when teaching on Matthew 2, and I realized I must have got that from McGee when I was a young preacher (maybe before I was a preacher). I doubt I have ever credited him for it.

We do not need copycatism and lazyism in our pulpits, but we do pass on what others taught us (2 Timothy 2:2). Perhaps there is a fine line here.

 

[Jerome]

Plagiarism, Shmagiarism

[survey of Preaching Today members, conducted by Christianity Today]

"In the past three months, have you used any of the following that originally appeared in another person's sermon?"

"Illustrations: 69 percent had done so
The main idea: 43 percent
Theological/scriptural principles: 40 percent
Sermon titles: 31 percent
Main outline points: 29 percent
Well-worded sentences or phrases: 28 percent
Metaphors: 24 percent
Subpoints and developing ideas: 18 percent
Some of the manuscript: 17 percent
Most of the manuscript: 6 percent
Have not used anything from another person's sermon: 13 percent"

 

[Salty]

"Similar to Cliff Notes????"

Except that the annual volumes totally changed to a totally "new" series of messages every year.

close enough for govt work

 

[canadyjd]

I preached a funeral of a beloved saint in our church. She died at 89. She left extensive notes on how she wanted her funeral to be conducted, including songs and hymns and so on. For the sermon, she wanted Psalm 23. She wrote very plainly, “don’t just read it, tell what it means.”

During my study, I came across Charles Spurgeons commentary on Psalm 23. I was so moved by his words, I literally did not believe I could explain it better.

I told the folks at the grave site exactly what I just stated to you, and read large portions of Spurgeons commentary.

After the service, her son came to me in tears and stated it was the best sermon he had ever heard and thanked me for giving his mother her final wish.

I see nothing wrong with exploring how others view passages of scripture or how they preached. I have quoted others, especially when I feel they have said things particularly well, always giving appropriate credit.

Peace to you

 

[Reynolds]

Plagiarism, Shmagiarism

[survey of Preaching Today members, conducted by Christianity Today]

"In the past three months, have you used any of the following that originally appeared in another person's sermon?"

"Illustrations: 69 percent had done so
The main idea: 43 percent
Theological/scriptural principles: 40 percent
Sermon titles: 31 percent
Main outline points: 29 percent
Well-worded sentences or phrases: 28 percent
Metaphors: 24 percent
Subpoints and developing ideas: 18 percent
Some of the manuscript: 17 percent
Most of the manuscript: 6 percent
Have not used anything from another person's sermon: 13 percent"

I would say 13% lie.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Perhaps a general disclaimer would suffice:

If my sermon sounds familiar, another may have preached it too.

If I sound like the apostle Paul, you must've been reading the Bible.

If I sound like Jesus, I may have taken it too far.
​

 

[AustinC]

I remember back in the day when various "Minister's Manual" publications (e.g. Doran's) existed, some even published by Zondervan as I recall. They provided busy pastors with sermon material for every Sunday morning and evening and Wednesday night for the entire year — not just outlines but in paragraph form!

Never used one myself, however, since I thought it the height of laziness to let someone else tell you what to preach and when to preach it.

May I ask how this is different from a liturgical church where the liturgy has been written ages before? Or...reading a prayer from Puritans?
Is the issue one of tradition rather than function or is the issue one of plagiarism without revealing source?
Do people open "The Daily Bread" or some other devotional as a resource? Is it wrong to use a devotional tool?
I understand that there is great personal value in digging and wrestling with the biblical text. I just wonder if this is an affront to tradition rather than function in a church. Honestly, there are some terrible preachers who couldn't exegete 1+1 or teach people that it equals 2. Is it not better for their congregation if a theologically rich sermon is written out for them rather than having them butcher the scripture into hamburger? Truthfully, there are terrible preachers all over the place that are not servicing their congregations. They need help.

 

[Ziggy]

Following a set liturgy has no relation to the sermon (homily) that takes part at a specified point in the liturgy. The one is fixed, the other is not.

Most "terrible preachers" I have heard (and there are some) are almost always those who have never been to a Bible College or Seminary, but who simply claim a "call", open their mouth, start preaching and put their foot in their mouth as well.

 

[Salty]

Following a set liturgy has no relation to the sermon (homily) that takes part at a specified point in the liturgy. The one is fixed, the other is not.

Most "terrible preachers" I have heard (and there are some) are almost always those who have never been to a Bible College or Seminary, but who simply claim a "call", open their mouth, start preaching and put their foot in their mouth as well.

and some who have been to cemetery - opps I mean Seminary - can be the same.

 

[Reynolds]

Following a set liturgy has no relation to the sermon (homily) that takes part at a specified point in the liturgy. The one is fixed, the other is not.

Most "terrible preachers" I have heard (and there are some) are almost always those who have never been to a Bible College or Seminary, but who simply claim a "call", open their mouth, start preaching and put their foot in their mouth as well.

The best preachers I have ever heard did not go to Seminary. The worst one I know got Dr. tacked on their name while in the cemetery.

 

[rlvaughn]

Honestly, there are some terrible preachers who couldn't exegete 1+1 or teach people that it equals 2.

With the ability to teach being a qualification (1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:9), we can wonder why some of these are preachers at all?

Most "terrible preachers" I have heard (and there are some) are almost always those who have never been to a Bible College or Seminary, but who simply claim a "call", open their mouth, start preaching and put their foot in their mouth as well.

and some who have been to cemetery - opps I mean Seminary - can be the same.

The best preachers I have ever heard did not go to Seminary. The worst one I know got Dr. tacked on their name while in the cemetery.

My experience mostly tracks with Reynolds, but have heard some of the type Ziggy mentions as well. Ultimately, individual preachers, like churches, must be judged on their own merits.

 

[Southern Fried Baptist]

May I ask how this is different from a liturgical church where the liturgy has been written ages before? Or...reading a prayer from Puritans?
Is the issue one of tradition rather than function or is the issue one of plagiarism without revealing source?
Do people open "The Daily Bread" or some other devotional as a resource? Is it wrong to use a devotional tool?
I understand that there is great personal value in digging and wrestling with the biblical text. I just wonder if this is an affront to tradition rather than function in a church. Honestly, there are some terrible preachers who couldn't exegete 1+1 or teach people that it equals 2. Is it not better for their congregation if a theologically rich sermon is written out for them rather than having them butcher the scripture into hamburger? Truthfully, there are terrible preachers all over the place that are not servicing their congregations. They need help.

Then they need fired. Not enabled.

 

[canadyjd]

Philippians 1:18 or so: …… whether in pretense or in truth; Christ is preached: wherein I do rejoice; yea; I will rejoice.

If Paul can rejoice when the gospel is preached, even when the preachers were vain or trying to hurt him, why can we?

peace to you