Age of the Universe in Jewish Commentaries

So explain how you get a finite temporal result without being given a finite and temporal cause.

 

Your claim requires a demonstration that God has never caused anything, or that God is finite and temporal, neither of which you believe, right?

 

Ah, not as you suppose. Why would the Word be hoth "with God" John 1:1-2 and be "God" John 1:1 the uncaused Cause, John 1:3 too?

 

OK, if not as I suppose, then which part do you deny? Do you insist God is finite rather than infinite? Do you insist God is temporal rather than eternal? Do you insist God has never caused anything? Also, did you just call God "the uncaused Cause"?

 

God is eternal infinite and so omnipresent. The Word aka the Son is though whom God created all things. And is how He walked in the garden, Genesis 3:8 per John 1:18 KJV.

 

You missed one about this: “Also, did you just call God the uncaused Cause?”

And now let’s go back and cover the others to suit:

If not as I suppose, then which part do you deny? Do you insist the Logos is finite rather than infinite? Do you insist the Logos is temporal rather than eternal? Do you insist the Logos has never caused anything?

Also, do you claim the Logos was with God but not God? And also, did you refer to the Logos as the uncaused Cause?

 

The Son. Colossians 1:16-17. John 1:1-3.

The Son being God is eternal infinite and omnipresent. Being the Son He is with God which is a finite and temporal relationship. The Logos aka the Son is both a distinct Person and the very same God. John 1:1-3. Colossians 1:16-17. John 1:10.

 

”Being the Son He is with God which is a finite and temporal relationship.” How so?

 

The Greek phrase "with God" is only used of the Son three of the twenty times in the New Testament as with God ,and men. And the Son has the sole role as God the uncaused Cause being both the eternal God and the finite and temporal Cause.

 

The sticking point is calling God "caused" even if using a capital "C".

Aristotle implied God was a cause Himself. In the case of Jesus Christ God became "cause". Interestingly enough Jesus claim to after the Cross and Resurrection go back and create current reality. The Cause in created form created all things along side of God the Father.


I think it should be termed as God creating 3 person to work and exist in this creation. Otherwise one would have 3 persons outside of creation, not just singular God. Probably not very relative now that time is almost at an end.

God would be many "things" unknown to those bound by this current created reality, if ever we are able to know. We are limited within creation itself. Just like God limited Himself to become flesh, but still remained God.

 

You’ll need to cite Scripture, if you are depending on it, and explain how it supports your claim. But note that both being with God and being God is a unique status and relationship. As for the other part, include explanation with the assertion, if you want to make your case.

So far, all you have is God is infinite, eternal, omnipresent, and the Son is infinite, eternal, omnipresent, in fact God. We are easily in agreement on that. Nothing temporal or finite has yet been established.

 

There are a few issues. First: The Word is both "with God" and "was God," John 1:1-2. In English to be "with" someone is to be someone other than the one one is with. Get that half first.

 

The Greek phrase, προς τον θεον.
Do you want the twenty New Testament references?

 

Who knows? So far, of the two of us, only you know what you want to make of the point. Your English is difficult to cipher at times. For example,

“The Greek phrase "with God" is only used of the Son three of the twenty times in the New Testament as with God ,and men.”

Doubtless you understood that, but it is unclear to me the intended meaning. Perhaps it relates to this verse?

“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” —John 1:18

 

No. The phrase "with God" relates to how the Word is not God and John 1:18 to how the Son appears being the LORD God on behalf His invisible God the Father. To be a finite and temporal visible actor on behalf of His Father.
At issue in this thread is the Word being both the eternal God and a finite and temporal being to be God the uncaused Cause. Being that all causes are finite and temporal in order to be a cause.

The Son has always been the Son and the one and the same God as His Father being there are the three distinct Persons who are God.

 

And that pretty much agrees with the Three Persons of the Trinity, the Three in One concept, thus he is both God and with God.

But this also relates to, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness,” in Genesis 1:26a. And similarly to, “And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters,” in Genesis 1:2c. The Bible depicts creation being effected by God with the Trinity in view.

 

Yet the the Son as the primary agent per John 1:3, Ephesians 3:9 KJV and Colossians 1:16-17.

 

No, “not God” is not part of that revelation. The description relates to “In the beginning,” and there the Word is both with God and God. There is no “not God” about it.

Your argument seems to be conflating the Creation with the Incarnation. While both are referred to in that introductory chapter of John, they are not the same. “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us,” is a not part of, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

Your argument is thus far circular. It is relying a priori on the conclusion that all causes must be temporal and finite. This has yet to be demonstrated. It cannot be demonstrated philosophically, and the Bible appears to be no friend to the idea either.

 

Primary agency does not seem to be in view in those verses, only essential agency with nothing temporal or finite attached until the Incarnation. The person of Christ is an important doctrine, his divine nature an essential feature, his human nature via the Incarnation as well. This doctrine needed to be well established and was, and thus is.

Thus far, nothing regarding temporal or finite attached to the God of creation during creation has been established, much less fleshed out.

 

Son of God and God. God is not the Son. The Son is not God the Father. Not God but the Son of God. In the incarnation the Son. became man. A man did not become God. The Son was always both the Son and God too. So He was always both not God and God too. The "not God" is not disallowing Him being God too. Fact "with God" is not saying the one other than God is God. In this case being not and being God too. John 1:1-2.