1 Cor. 1:18-"are saved" or "are being saved"?

[JD731]

So, you don't believe the Word of God in Peter that the Word of God is incorruptible. Again, for historical reference, that is a position classical liberals take, doubting the very canon of Scripture. I have a Japanese translation by liberals that doubts that some of the epistles said in Scripture to be written by Paul are "allegedly by Paul."

Look, when the Bible says the Word of God is incorruptible, you should believe that. Don't come with your interpretations of other Scriptures that you think contradict Peter. Peter is correct--the Word of God cannot be corrupted. And the Word of God does not contradict itself. Leave your human logic out of it, and simply take Peter at his (and His) word.

Mankind cannot really damage the Word of God, because of its incredible power: "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:12). The Hebrew OT and Greek NT are 100% pure.


No, the tenses are all the same, no matter which Greek text you use. I checked the Byzantine, UBS, and TR. The tense in all three is the Greek perfect tense, which has the verbal aspect of action being completed with the results continuing. The best example of this in Scripture is Jesus on the cross saying, "It is finished." Therefore any of the three translations you mentioned are correct, because it is extremely difficult to get the Greek perfect tense perfectly into English, which does not have the same tense. The KJV translates with present tenses, emphasizing the continuing results, but the NkIV (do you mean the NKJV?) and the NIV (the translation method of which I oppose) emphasize the past action of the perfect tense.

This is why God calls men like me to be Greek teachers, to help students who want to understand the Word of God. I hope this has helped you.

Well, it has not helped me because the translators who guessed the wrong tense and put their being born again into the past tense are assuming Peter is addressing whoever reads this and at any time they read it, which he is not. He is addressing a certain group of people who are continuing to be saved as the ministry of these apostles and prophets of the Lord continues among them. The KJV has it right. The KJV says "being born again, not of corruptible seed but by incorruptible, and we find out it is by the word of God. This corruptible seed is contrasted in this instance in the text by money. The preacher is preaching. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Salvation is by faith. This is the point.

These are the people who are addressed in the book of Hosea. The preaching of the gospel by the word of the Lord is a fulfillment of that promise of Hosea concerning Ephraim, Israel, the northern kingdom. They are addressed by Peter as "strangers." They are strangers because they are the covenanted children of Abraham and they are in a strange land, and have been since 722 BC. I will quote you a small portion of Hosea 1 and you can deal with the context.

Hos 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

They are cut off from the covenant because they are purged out of the land and considered dead by God. However, it is possible for them to have a new birth through their Messiah saviour and when they believe in him they will not be children of Abraham but children of God. The new birth makes them sons of God.

Peter wrote to these starngers in the provinces where they dwelt in Asia Minor. This is where Paul first preached to gentiles. He addressed his letters to those strangers in Pontus, Cappadocia, Asia, Galatia, and Bithynia. His mission of his apostleship was to the circumcision, which these synogogue worshipping Jews strangers were.

Ga 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

There is context and purpose in the scriptures that must not be rubbed out by improper words and by men who think they are wiser than God. This is what is done in these MV's that has these strangers already saved, past tense, when in fact, the KJV says they are being saved.

The "word of the Lord" at the end of this chapter is a person and notice how the KJV states it. You don't get that in these MV's.

Think about this.

 

[John of Japan]

Well, it has not helped me because the translators who guessed the wrong tense and put their being born again into the past tense are assuming Peter is addressing whoever reads this and at any time they read it, which he is not. He is addressing a certain group of people who are continuing to be saved as the ministry of these apostles and prophets of the Lord continues among them. The KJV has it right. The KJV says "being born again, not of corruptible seed but by incorruptible, and we find out it is by the word of God. This corruptible seed is contrasted in this instance in the text by money. The preacher is preaching. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Salvation is by faith. This is the point.

Again, the Greek perfect tense IS a past tense.

Now, since you believe that the KJV is a perfect translation, do you then believe like Peter Ruckman, that the original Greek that God directly gave us must be corrected from the KJV when they differ?

These are the people who are addressed in the book of Hosea. The preaching of the gospel by the word of the Lord is a fulfillment of that promise of Hosea concerning Ephraim, Israel, the northern kingdom. They are addressed by Peter as "strangers." They are strangers because they are the covenanted children of Abraham and they are in a strange land, and have been since 722 BC. I will quote you a small portion of Hosea 1 and you can deal with the context.

Hos 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

They are cut off from the covenant because they are purged out of the land and considered dead by God. However, it is possible for them to have a new birth through their Messiah saviour and when they believe in him they will not be children of Abraham but children of God. The new birth makes them sons of God.

Peter wrote to these starngers in the provinces where they dwelt in Asia Minor. This is where Paul first preached to gentiles. He addressed his letters to those strangers in Pontus, Cappadocia, Asia, Galatia, and Bithynia. His mission of his apostleship was to the circumcision, which these synogogue worshipping Jews strangers were.

Ga 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

There is context and purpose in the scriptures that must not be rubbed out by improper words and by men who think they are wiser than God. This is what is done in these MV's that has these strangers already saved, past tense, when in fact, the KJV says they are being saved.

I fail to see any relevance at all here to the discussion at hand.

The "word of the Lord" at the end of this chapter is a person and notice how the KJV states it. You don't get that in these MV's.

Think about this.

Huh? What are you talking about? The phrase "word of the Lord" occurs in none of the passages you've just quoted. It occurs in Hosea 1:1-2, 4:1, but that's not the "end of this chapter."

Forgive me, but you seem to be off on some rabbit trail.

 

[Yeshua1]

Paul & Peter were Hebrews. They knew the prophets of old had said the words like these.

Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

They knew, as I do, that diluting something that is very pure would corrupt it. In this case, adding any man's word to the pure word of God would corrupt it for the simple reason it would no longer be the word of God and especially it would no longer be pure. Common logic says one either has inspired words of God or he doesn't have the pure word of God at all.

I have noticed by comparing 1 Peter 1, a portion of which you referenced, the NkIV, the NIV, and the KJV, that the verb tenses are different and I understand the MV's did this because they do not understand God's systematic theology. This is a big deal. There are warnings about this in Rev 22. It is best to allow God to say what he wants to say and be careful to not pollute his word n purpose.

All inspiration being cited in the scriptures refers to only and just originals, not to any translation!

 

[Yeshua1]

So, you don't believe the Word of God in Peter that the Word of God is incorruptible. Again, for historical reference, that is a position classical liberals take, doubting the very canon of Scripture. I have a Japanese translation by liberals that doubts that some of the epistles said in Scripture to be written by Paul are "allegedly by Paul."

Look, when the Bible says the Word of God is incorruptible, you should believe that. Don't come with your interpretations of other Scriptures that you think contradict Peter. Peter is correct--the Word of God cannot be corrupted. And the Word of God does not contradict itself. Leave your human logic out of it, and simply take Peter at his (and His) word.

Mankind cannot really damage the Word of God, because of its incredible power: "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Heb. 4:12). The Hebrew OT and Greek NT are 100% pure.


No, the tenses are all the same, no matter which Greek text you use. I checked the Byzantine, UBS, and TR. The tense in all three is the Greek perfect tense, which has the verbal aspect of action being completed with the results continuing. The best example of this in Scripture is Jesus on the cross saying, "It is finished." Therefore any of the three translations you mentioned are correct, because it is extremely difficult to get the Greek perfect tense perfectly into English, which does not have the same tense. The KJV translates with present tenses, emphasizing the continuing results, but the NkIV (do you mean the NKJV?) and the NIV (the translation method of which I oppose) emphasize the past action of the perfect tense.

This is why God calls men like me to be Greek teachers, to help students who want to understand the Word of God. I hope this has helped you.

All of the Greek texts one would use, any of those you listed here, would have authority over his beloved Kjv!
And when will those holding to KJVO understand thatall citations in the scriptures to being inspired and word of the Lord refers to originals and not to any translations!

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, it has not helped me because the translators who guessed the wrong tense and put their being born again into the past tense are assuming Peter is addressing whoever reads this and at any time they read it, which he is not. He is addressing a certain group of people who are continuing to be saved as the ministry of these apostles and prophets of the Lord continues among them. The KJV has it right. The KJV says "being born again, not of corruptible seed but by incorruptible, and we find out it is by the word of God. This corruptible seed is contrasted in this instance in the text by money. The preacher is preaching. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Salvation is by faith. This is the point.

These are the people who are addressed in the book of Hosea. The preaching of the gospel by the word of the Lord is a fulfillment of that promise of Hosea concerning Ephraim, Israel, the northern kingdom. They are addressed by Peter as "strangers." They are strangers because they are the covenanted children of Abraham and they are in a strange land, and have been since 722 BC. I will quote you a small portion of Hosea 1 and you can deal with the context.

Hos 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

They are cut off from the covenant because they are purged out of the land and considered dead by God. However, it is possible for them to have a new birth through their Messiah saviour and when they believe in him they will not be children of Abraham but children of God. The new birth makes them sons of God.

Peter wrote to these starngers in the provinces where they dwelt in Asia Minor. This is where Paul first preached to gentiles. He addressed his letters to those strangers in Pontus, Cappadocia, Asia, Galatia, and Bithynia. His mission of his apostleship was to the circumcision, which these synogogue worshipping Jews strangers were.

Ga 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

There is context and purpose in the scriptures that must not be rubbed out by improper words and by men who think they are wiser than God. This is what is done in these MV's that has these strangers already saved, past tense, when in fact, the KJV says they are being saved.

The "word of the Lord" at the end of this chapter is a person and notice how the KJV states it. You don't get that in these MV's.

Think about this.

EVERY translation has places where they make an educated best guess as to how should be rendered into Englsih, and sometimes no right or wrong, as more then one valid rendering allowed!

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, the Greek perfect tense IS a past tense.

Now, since you believe that the KJV is a perfect translation, do you then believe like Peter Ruckman, that the original Greek that God directly gave us must be corrected from the KJV when they differ?


I fail to see any relevance at all here to the discussion at hand.

Huh? What are you talking about? The phrase "word of the Lord" occurs in none of the passages you've just quoted. It occurs in Hosea 1:1-2, 4:1, but that's not the "end of this chapter."

Forgive me, but you seem to be off on some rabbit trail.

NONE of the 1611 translators would agree that their Kjv has authority over the Greek text though!

 

[JD731]

Again, the Greek perfect tense IS a past tense.

Now, since you believe that the KJV is a perfect translation, do you then believe like Peter Ruckman, that the original Greek that God directly gave us must be corrected from the KJV when they differ?

No, I think that because of the nature of God and the unsearchable truths that he has given in his word through his prophets who wrote it, that if these truths are maintained in translation, God must be in it.

I fail to see any relevance at all here to the discussion at hand.

Thank you. This is my point. You cannot see. The NT is a continuing history of the unfolding drama of redemption. Salvation, Jesus says in Jn 4, is by the Jews. God is always God but he requires of men that they believe and obey him because of his goodness. He raised the nation of Israel up among the nations for the express purpose of saving them first and then through them saving all peoples of the earth.

There are, however, consequences to the failures of men to recognize and to follow and obey God. This is what happened to Israel. The OT records the two thousand year history that resulted in much discipline of God, even to the point of dividing the nation into two nations and driving one nation from the land he had promised them. This is not a punitive act on the part of God but a remedial one. His intention is to go where they are and save their soul and make them his own son through a new birth and to eventually recover them and return them to their land and to reunite the two nations, Ephraim and Judah into one 12 tribe nation on the earth, a trinity, if you will, Judah, Ephraim, the Spirit of God. One in three and three in one, the signature of God on this people. The sovereign plan of God was to evangelize the nations though them. The tribulation period, the day of the LORD judgements we read about in the scriptures, is the design of God to rid the earth of all sinners who will not repent and willingly .bow the knee to Jesus Christ as Lord. This age will end and the church of Jesus Christ will be taken away and the operative principle of Diviine dealing with men for the coming age will be "Righteousness." This will not be a good place for rebels.

However, the discerning student of the word of God will see the wisdom of God in planting his church in this age, a totally spiritual and different entity than the earth bound nation of Israel, the church with the "remnant" of the believers in Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah of Israel, after it is clear that neither Judah nor Israel will accept him as their King of their nation. A King is what a national sovereign is. This is the reason Israel killed him. This kingdom he was to establish would be one founded on the principles of righteousness, which is the reason he would not take the throne until after he had provided a means to wash away the sins of his subjects and give them his very own righteousness and the power through his Spirit to do all things to please God. But they must have the Spirit. The Spirit is the power of the spiritual man. The OT had a man without the Spirit and therefore no power over self will, no matter how wonderful the outward law of God was to them and how hard they tried to keep it, they fell short. It will not be so in the kingdom age. The dynamics will be different.

The reason this age and the church of Jesus Christ with both the repentant believing Jews and the repentant believing gentiles in it through the NEW birth and as "one NEW man" by each believer being made a new CREATURE in Christ under a NEW testament, and with promises of dwelling in the future in the NEW Jerusalem when God creates the NEW heaven and the NEW earth, is not a subject of OT prophecy is because the sovereign will of God was for his people Israel to repent and believe as a nation and people, which they did not. This age, then, is a pivot point of God and he did not fail but will still accomplish every thing he has determined to do on the earth only when his will is accomplished it will be over eternal righteous subjects, every one of which has made a personal decision to believe God and to receive his salvation through faith. Every one. So the long suffering of God is repentance.

The church is the wisdom of God on display for the benefit of the angelic hosts, he says.

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (Glorification of the church is the predestined end)

The mystery of the church, which is Jews and gentiles in the same body, is stated here.

eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

So, this new man will be a trinity when complete because it is fashioned from Jews, gentiles, and the Spirit of God. a threefold entity and having the trinitarian image of God, the trinity. Three in one and one in three.

Huh? What are you talking about? The phrase "word of the Lord" occurs in none of the passages you've just quoted. It occurs in Hosea 1:1-2, 4:1, but that's not the "end of this chapter."

Forgive me, but you seem to be off on some rabbit trail.

No, God sent Peter and the other 11 apostles to the covenanted people of God to gather from them the remnant. He is not now going to complete his salvation to them nationally but individually. He has opened the gospel up to the world because his people have been driven by the nations into the world and God has allowed it because of their sins. Therefore all people in this age, including his covenanted people, are as gentiles and will be saved by simply believing in Christ and being placed by the Spirit into his body. Both Peter and Paul assured us that God has not voided his covenants to Israel but he has delayed them until the coming age.

1 Pet 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

This is the reason this is stated as it is. The Jews from their OT would understand that the word of the Lord is the title of a person, Adonay Jehovah, the Lord GOD who had been speaking to them since Ge 15:1. The new bibles have rubbed that language out because the translators do not know that, I suppose. They do not think the words are that important. But they are.

Here is a description of this age concerning the people of God, Israel. History proves it's truth.

44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Psalm 135:4
For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The payment for buying them back is his blood, his life for theirs.

Now, I am going into a lot of this because I am not going to answer you anymore. You do not understand these things. You do not care how the word of God is presented. Anyone who knows the Greek or Hebrew is qualified to produce a bible according to you, if I get your drift. There is no majesty to it. It is just words and the words are not important. They all say the same things no matter how different. God is not in any translations is what I am hearing. They are all the best work of intelligent men..

One must be sure he is faithful to the truth of God if he is handling his word because of the profound warning about adding to and taking away from the words in Re 22. It should cause any of us pause.

That is all I have.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, I think that because of the nature of God and the unsearchable truths that he has given in his word through his prophets who wrote it, that if these truths are maintained in translation, God must be in it.





Thank you. This is my point. You cannot see. The NT is a continuing history of the unfolding drama of redemption. Salvation, Jesus says in Jn 4, is by the Jews. God is always God but he requires of men that they believe and obey him because of his goodness. He raised the nation of Israel up among the nations for the express purpose of saving them first and then through them saving all peoples of the earth.

There are, however, consequences to the failures of men to recognize and to follow and obey God. This is what happened to Israel. The OT records the two thousand year history that resulted in much discipline of God, even to the point of dividing the nation into two nations and driving one nation from the land he had promised them. This is not a punitive act on the part of God but a remedial one. His intention is to go where they are and save their soul and make them his own son through a new birth and to eventually recover them and return them to their land and to reunite the two nations, Ephraim and Judah into one 12 tribe nation on the earth, a trinity, if you will, Judah, Ephraim, the Spirit of God. One in three and three in one, the signature of God on this people. The sovereign plan of God was to evangelize the nations though them. The tribulation period, the day of the LORD judgements we read about in the scriptures, is the design of God to rid the earth of all sinners who will not repent and willingly .bow the need to Jesus Christ as Lord. This age will end and the church of Jesus Christ will be taken away and the operative principle of Diviine dealing with men for the coming age will be "Righteousness." This will not be a good place for rebels.

However, the discerning student of the word of God will see the wisdom of God in planting his church in this age, a totally spiritual and different entity than the earth bound nation of Israel, the church with the "remnant" of the believers in Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah of Israel, after it is clear that neither Judah nor Israel will accept him as their King of their nation. A King is what a national sovereign is. This is the reason Israel killed him. This kingdom he was to establish would be one founded on the principles of righteousness, which is the reason he would not take the throne until after he had provided a means to wash away the sins of his subjects and give them his very own righteousness and the power through his Spirit to do all things to please God. But they must have the Spirit. The Spirit is the power of the spiritual man. The OT had a man without the Spirit and therefore no power over self will, no matter how wonderful the outward law of God was to them and how hard they tried to keep it, they fell short. It will not be so in the kingdom age. The dynamics will be different.

The reason this age and the church of Jesus Christ with both the repentant believing Jews and the repentant believing gentiles in it through the NEW birth and as "one NEW man" by each believer being made a new CREATURE in Christ under a NEW testament, and with promises of dwelling in the future in the NEW Jerusalem when God creates the NEW heaven and the NEW earth, is not a subject of OT prophecy is because the sovereign will of God was for his people Israel to repent and believe as a nation and people, which they did not. This age, then, is a pivot point of God and he did not fail but will still accomplish every thing he has determined to do on the earth only when his will is accomplished it will be over eternal righteous subjects, every one of which has made a personal decision to believe God and to receive his salvation through faith. Every one. So the long suffering of God is repentance.

The church is the wisdom of God on display for the benefit of the angelic hosts, he says.

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (Glorification of the church is the predestined end)

The mystery of the church, which is Jews and gentiles in the same body, is stated here.

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

So, this new man will be a trinity when complete because it is fashioned from Jews, gentiles, and the Spirit of God. a threefold entity and having the trinitarian image of God, the trinity. Three in one and one in three.



No, God sent Peter and the other 11 apostles to the covenanted people of God to gather from them the remnant. He is not now going to complete his salvation to them nationally but individually. He has opened the gospel up to the world because his people have been driven by the nations into the world and God has allowed it because of their sins. Therefore all people in this age, including his covenanted people, are as gentiles and will be saved by simply believing in Christ and being placed by the Spirit into his body. Both Peter and Paul assured us that God has not voided his covenants to Israel but he has delayed them until the coming age.

1 Pet 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

This is the reason this is stated as it is. The Jews from their OT would understand that the word of the Lord is the title of a person, Adonay Jehovah, the Lord GOD who had been speaking to them since Ge 15:1. The new bibles have rubbed that language out because the translators do not know that, I suppose. They do not think the words are that important. But they are.

Here is a description of this age concerning the people of God, Israel. History proves it's truth.

44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Psalm 135:4
For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The payment for buying them back is his blood, his life for theirs.

Now, I am going into a lot of this because I am not going to answer you anymore. You do not understand these things. You do not care how the word of God is presented. Anyone who knows the Greek or Hebrew is qualified to produce a bible according to you, if I get your drift. There is no majesty to it. It is just words and the words are not important. They all say the same things no matter how different. God is not in any translations is what I am hearing. They are all the best work of intelligent men..

One must be sure he is faithful to the truth of God if he is handling his word because of the profound warning about adding to and taking away from the words in Re 22. It should cause any of us pause.

That is all I have.

The Holy Spirit inspired the originals He has not done such for any Translation!

 

[robycop3]

To JDS 31:
Actually, you're too much in thrall to the KJVO myth to understand that GOD created ALL languages, & causes/allows changes in them as He chooses.

He wants all to understand His word, regardless of what language or dialect He's given them. And English is far-more-complex than the languages God gave His Scriptures in, same as many other modern languages are. But this was NOT lost on Him, of course. Over the years, He's caused His word to be translated into the language styles of the times, so the people of a given time and language could understand it upon reading or hearing it.

Now, I don't believe ANY Bible translator, past or present, knew/knows all the subtleties & nuances of ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek, but they knew enough of them to convey God's MESSAGES, if not His exact words. And THAT'S what 's important.[/QUOTE]

 

[JD731]

To JDS 31:
Actually, you're too much in thrall to the KJVO myth to understand that GOD created ALL languages, & causes/allows changes in them as He chooses.

He wants all to understand His word, regardless of what language or dialect He's given them. And English is far-more-complex than the languages God gave His Scriptures in, same as many other modern languages are. But this was NOT lost on Him, of course. Over the years, He's caused His word to be translated into the language styles of the times, so the people of a given time and language could understand it upon reading or hearing it.

Now, I don't believe ANY Bible translator, past or present, knew/knows all the subtleties & nuances of ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek, but they knew enough of them to convey God's MESSAGES, if not His exact words. And THAT'S what 's important.

You are wrong about that. God's truths are in his words, he says.He does not warn a man about taking away or adding to his messages, he warns a man about his words. Maybe you are not careful enough in your reading.

Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Do you realize that some so called translators have taken away 65,000 words? I would not call that a translator, I would call him a fearless editor. What would you call him?

 

[robycop3]

You are wrong about that. God's truths are in his words, he says.He does not warn a man about taking away or adding to his messages, he warns a man about his words. Maybe you are not careful enough in your reading.

Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Do you realize that some so called translators have taken away 65,000 words? I would not call that a translator, I would call him a fearless editor. What would you call him?

No; translators did NOT take away 65K of GOD'S words. They took away words from the KJV, many of which don't belong in a modern Bible translation, due to both language changes & more-accurate translation.

And, of course, there are many, MANY words in the Scriptural mss. that have multiple English meanings. When he has no help from context, the translator is tasked with choosing what he believes is the most-accurate words, so naturally, different works by different translators will be different from each other.

Your statements reflect the trash written by KJVO "authors" seeking to milk the KJVO cash cow by selling boox. It's similar to their garbage over "are saved-are being saved", which has been discredited in this thread. Perhaps some day you'll realize the entire KJVO myth is one big lie, invented by Satan.

 

[John of Japan]

No, I think that because of the nature of God and the unsearchable truths that he has given in his word through his prophets who wrote it, that if these truths are maintained in translation, God must be in it.

Yes, the truths are eternal and the Word of God itself are eternal. And I agree that "if these truths are maintained in translation, God must be in it." God is entirely in favor of the Bible being translated into every language on earth. That is easily provable from Scripture: the Great Commission, people from "every tongue" in Heaven (Rev. 5:9), etc. That's why I was a missionary and am a Bible translator.

Thank you. This is my point. You cannot see. The NT is a continuing history of the unfolding drama of redemption. Salvation, Jesus says in Jn 4, is by the Jews. God is always God but he requires of men that they believe and obey him because of his goodness. He raised the nation of Israel up among the nations for the express purpose of saving them first and then through them saving all peoples of the earth.

How condescending of you. "You cannot see," you say. I'm 69, been preaching the Gospel for 51 years and reading the Bible for 60 years. I've taught the Bible in either Japanese or English or both since 1978. I now teach the Bible as my full time ministry and for a living and have for the past 7 years; before that I taught the Bible in two different Bible schools in Japan.

I prefer to say that you, yourself, cannot explain cogently what you are trying to say.

... (Long, irrelevant section here)

Can't you put it on the bottom shelf in plain English so some poor, ignorant soul like me can make out what in the world you are trying to say?

Now, I am going into a lot of this because I am not going to answer you anymore. You do not understand these things. You do not care how the word of God is presented. Anyone who knows the Greek or Hebrew is qualified to produce a bible according to you, if I get your drift. There is no majesty to it. It is just words and the words are not important. They all say the same things no matter how different. God is not in any translations is what I am hearing. They are all the best work of intelligent men..

No, you DO NOT get my drift. So you lie about me and say, "You do not care how the word of God is presented." Shame on you. And there is no way in God's wonderful world that you can know anything about our Japanese--not English--translation. So you are putting words into my mouth that I never said, nor do I mean, when you say, "God is not in any translations is what I am hearing." I never said that, nor do I believe it.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are wrong about that. God's truths are in his words, he says.He does not warn a man about taking away or adding to his messages, he warns a man about his words. Maybe you are not careful enough in your reading.

Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Do you realize that some so called translators have taken away 65,000 words? I would not call that a translator, I would call him a fearless editor. What would you call him?

God gave to us His words in Koine Greek, at the right time, as the situation was right for it! Hebrew and Greek was the preferred language of God, not English!

 

[Yeshua1]

No; translators did NOT take away 65K of GOD'S words. They took away words from the KJV, many of which don't belong in a modern Bible translation, due to both language changes & more-accurate translation.

And, of course, there are many, MANY words in the Scriptural mss. that have multiple English meanings. When he has no help from context, the translator is tasked with choosing what he believes is the most-accurate words, so naturally, different works by different translators will be different from each other.

Your statements reflect the trash written by KJVO "authors" seeking to milk the KJVO cash cow by selling boox. It's similar to their garbage over "are saved-are being saved", which has been discredited in this thread. Perhaps some day you'll realize the entire KJVO myth is one big lie, invented by Satan.

the KJVO alway lie about when MV omit the scriptures, as they always assume that the TR is 100% of the originals!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, the truths are eternal and the Word of God itself are eternal. And I agree that "if these truths are maintained in translation, God must be in it." God is entirely in favor of the Bible being translated into every language on earth. That is easily provable from Scripture: the Great Commission, people from "every tongue" in Heaven (Rev. 5:9), etc. That's why I was a missionary and am a Bible translator.


How condescending of you. "You cannot see," you say. I'm 69, been preaching the Gospel for 51 years and reading the Bible for 60 years. I've taught the Bible in either Japanese or English or both since 1978. I now teach the Bible as my full time ministry and for a living and have for the past 7 years; before that I taught the Bible in two different Bible schools in Japan.

I prefer to say that you, yourself, cannot explain cogently what you are trying to say.
Can't you put it on the bottom shelf in plain English so some poor, ignorant soul like me can make out what in the world you are trying to say?


No, you DO NOT get my drift. So you lie about me and say, "You do not care how the word of God is presented." Shame on you. And there is no way in God's wonderful world that you can know anything about our Japanese--not English--translation. So you are putting words into my mouth that I never said, nor do I mean, when you say, "God is not in any translations is what I am hearing." I never said that, nor do I believe it.

Did the 1611 team on the Kjv then use the Hebrew and Greek sources, or per him, just translated English to English?

 

[John of Japan]

Did the 1611 team on the Kjv then use the Hebrew and Greek sources, or per him, just translated English to English?

It was a revision of previous Bibles, but yes, they did use the Greek and Hebrew.

 

[JD731]

No; translators did NOT take away 65K of GOD'S words. They took away words from the KJV, many of which don't belong in a modern Bible translation, due to both language changes & more-accurate translation.

And, of course, there are many, MANY words in the Scriptural mss. that have multiple English meanings. When he has no help from context, the translator is tasked with choosing what he believes is the most-accurate words, so naturally, different works by different translators will be different from each other.

Your statements reflect the trash written by KJVO "authors" seeking to milk the KJVO cash cow by selling boox. It's similar to their garbage over "are saved-are being saved", which has been discredited in this thread. Perhaps some day you'll realize the entire KJVO myth is one big lie, invented by Satan.

Why does God say that we English speakers needs scores of English translations of the minority manuscripts when he gave his words to either 8 or 9 of his eye witnesses, depending on who wrote Hebrews, to give to us only one time and then warned everyone that there would be a penalty of hell for changing any of them? When you try to convince the world that the word of God can be perfectly expressed in scores of different translations in the same language and from the same manuscripts, aren't you presenting a very cavalier attitude towards what you have been told in the original language, Greek? Do you even believe the words in the original language?

Do you think God closed out his testimony to men in his written record in Revelation 22 with such a dire warning because he thought men might alter his word or that he knew they would? Are you saying to the world that men who translate his words from the same minority texts as many as 30 or 40 times into the same language while employing very different translation philosophies, like optimization, dynamic equivalence, condensing, and paraphrasing are quoting the exact same things the 8 or 9 eye witness writers are saying and it does not matter which translation you preach. Do you think two translations of a document into English the size of the scriptures can be translated by two different committees employing two different translation philosophies and varying in the number of words by 65,000 are saying essentially the same things?

Why did Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, go west with the gospel 3 times? Why did he not go south into Africa, or east into India and China where most of the world's population resides? Why doesn't Japan have a bible after 2000 years? Why does God keep commissioning new bible translations for the English speakers with no end in sight, or does he? Why don't the Japanese who come to America build great churches to honor Jesus Christ and evangelize the unsaved of America? Is it because he has commissioned the English to preserve the words of the eye witnesses and to preach them to the Asians?

Why don't internet arguments about bible translations take place among the Asians and Africans and other non English speakers?

I have more questions but that is enough for now to show God is not a free for all bible translator like you.

2 Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

More deception with new bibles, not less, in the last days?

 

[robycop3]

Why does God say that we English speakers needs scores of English translations of the minority manuscripts when he gave his words to either 8 or 9 of his eye witnesses, depending on who wrote Hebrews, to give to us only one time and then warned everyone that there would be a penalty of hell for changing any of them? When you try to convince the world that the word of God can be perfectly expressed in scores of different translations in the same language and from the same manuscripts, aren't you presenting a very cavalier attitude towards what you have been told in the original language, Greek? Do you even believe the words in the original language?

Do you think God closed out his testimony to men in his written record in Revelation 22 with such a dire warning because he thought men might alter his word or that he knew they would? Are you saying to the world that men who translate his words from the same minority texts as many as 30 or 40 times into the same language while employing very different translation philosophies, like optimization, dynamic equivalence, condensing, and paraphrasing are quoting the exact same things the 8 or 9 eye witness writers are saying and it does not matter which translation you preach. Do you think two translations of a document into English the size of the scriptures can be translated by two different committees employing two different translation philosophies and varying in the number of words by 65,000 are saying essentially the same things?

Why did Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, go west with the gospel 3 times? Why did he not go south into Africa, or east into India and China where most of the world's population resides? Why doesn't Japan have a bible after 2000 years? Why does God keep commissioning new bible translations for the English speakers with no end in sight, or does he? Why don't the Japanese who come to America build great churches to honor Jesus Christ and evangelize the unsaved of America? Is it because he has commissioned the English to preserve the words of the eye witnesses and to preach them to the Asians?

Why don't internet arguments about bible translations take place among the Asians and Africans and other non English speakers?

I have more questions but that is enough for now to show God is not a free for all bible translator like you.

2 Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

More deception with new bibles, not less, in the last days?

Where does GOD say He will only allow one translation per language? If that's the case, why isn't English limited to the version that was used shortly after William The Conqueror took the throne of England?

GOD knew most people wouldn't know ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek, same as back then. HE used it because they were the languages of His chosen penmen over the nearly-two millenia He gave His word to man.

While he was writing mostly about unknown tongues, Paul reminded his readers that words in a language unknown to the audience would be useless. And so it is with old English Bible versions. Wycliffe's version was little-understood by the British of Tyndale's time, only about 150 years later, so Tyndale made a translation in the English of his time. English had changed a lot in the time between Wycliffe & Tyndale. And it'd changed some between his & King James' time. And in the 400 years since then, it's changed a good deal more.

Thus, GOD has caused translations to be made that are in step with the language changes HE has caused/allowed. He wants His word to be plainly understood by all who read or hear it. Thus, He's kept it current in every major language on earth, including English.

Why are there several current English translations in use now? Because English has more words than any other language; we have a word for everything. And a good many Hebrew, Aramaic, & Koine Greek words have multiple English meanings, and, when context is no help, a translator must make his/her best prayerful choice from among those meanings. Thus, translations by different people differ from each other, same as the Four Gospels do.

The KJVO myth is one big fat lie, invented by Satan & started among men from a CULT OFFICIAL'S book, & spread by some dishonest authors who legally but dishonestly plagiarized from that cult official's book & spread the lie thru modern media. Why a CHRISTIAN should become in thrall to one of SATAN'S lies is beyond me. The KJVO myth is NOT found in Scrupture by the least quark of the slightest implication !

All I can do is point out why the KJVO myth is a lie While that may keep a new Christian from falling for it, it's gonna take the power of the HOLY SPIRIT to break the thralldom many long-time KJVOs are under. And I HAVE seen Him do it before !

 

[JD731]

Why are there several current English translations in use now? Because English has more words than any other language; we have a word for everything. And a good many Hebrew, Aramaic, & Koine Greek words have multiple English meanings, and, when context is no help, a translator must make his/her best prayerful choice from among those meanings. Thus, translations by different people differ from each other, same as the Four Gospels do.

I think we have nailed it down. You are speaking as if the entire process of understanding God is upon the shoulders of scholarship of the elite among us. Is this not the warning of 1 Cor 2, and does God not destroy the wisdom of the wise? There is a Holy Ghost and he has a function for the believer. It is to teach him the deep things of God through the words God has chosen, according to 1 Cor 2. I have quoted them and you have read them, ad
nauseum and you just do not agree with what he has said.

1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You are under the false idea that God wants men to know the mysteries of God. He wants believers to know the mysteries of God and he wants the world of unsaved to know the gospel of God. There is a difference. Unsaved men cannot know the mysteries because they are spiritually discerned, so says the text. Anyone can understand the gospel of Christ and believe it.

1 Cor 4: Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Verse 13 above says the Holy Ghost teaches through words.

The new bibles have not helped denominational Christianity to be more united.

 

[Logos1560]

You are speaking as if the entire process of understanding God is upon the shoulders of scholarship of the elite among us.

Your own human KJV-only reasoning suggests that the entire process of understanding God in English rests upon the shoulders of an exclusive, elite group of doctrinally-unsound Church of England critics/priests/scholars in 1611.

According to your posts, you seem at times to consider yourself the only elite person who understands God and the Scriptures.