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The Obvious Need for Confessional Basics Concerning The Faith

JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Iconoclast said:
Hello John C,
I think statements of faith try and clarify a creedal statement.
Then I think Confessions of faith expand and clarify statements of faith.
None of them are exhaustive.
Some are defective.
I am not a history expert however having looked at some of the earlier or let's say more primitive writings, I would have to own some from those groups as brothers even when theological differences occur. Donatists, waldenses, cathari, etc had limited resources.
It is hard to read back into history what they believed as we were not there to walk in their shoes, or know in what way they were limited.

A confession gets someone into the ballpark,
A few years back I listed the table of contents of the 1689 , The challenge was, using only an open Bible....write your own confession of faith, then lets compare it.
Strangely enough, only Van (to his credit), took the challenge and made an attempt.
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I'm not surecI get the difference. Most creeds I have seen are not more on depth than most statements of faiths I have seen. I am thinking of the BF&M in particular (as I am a Southern Baptist).

Confessions and statements of faith seem very much alike (to me) while most Christian creeds seem to be skeleton plans of Confessions.
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
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JonC said:
I'm not surecI get the difference. Most creeds I have seen are not more on depth than most statements of faiths I have seen. I am thinking of the BF&M in particular (as I am a Southern Baptist).

Confessions and statements of faith seem very much alike (to me) while most Christian creeds seem to be skeleton plans of Confessions.
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Initially I was in the Conservative Baptist Church;
Declaration of Faith The Word of God –
We believe the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the inspired Word of God, inerrant in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation, and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak. The Trinity
– We believe in one God, Creator and Sustainer of all things, eternally divine existing in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit; we believe that these are equal in every distinct perfection and they execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence, and redemption. God the Father
– We believe in God the Father: an infinite, personal Spirit, perfect in holiness, wisdom, power, and love. We believe that He concerns Himself mercifully in the affairs of humanity, that He hears and answers prayer, and that He saves from sin and death all who come to Him through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ
– We believe that Jesus Christ is God's eternal Son, who has precisely the same nature, attributes, and perfections as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. We believe further that He is not only true God, but true man, conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. We also believe in His sinless life, His substitutionary atonement, His bodily resurrection from the dead, His ascension into heaven, His priestly intercession on behalf of His people, and His personal, visible, premillennial return from heaven. Holy Spirit
– We believe in the Holy Spirit, His personality and His work in regeneration, sanctification, and preservation. His ministry is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ, to implement Christ's work of redeeming the lost, and to empower the believer for godly living and service. Man
– We believe God originally created persons, male and female, in the image of God and free from sin. We further believe all people are sinners by nature and choice and are spiritually dead. We also believe that those who repent of sin and trust Jesus Christ as Savior are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Salvation
– We believe in salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We further believe that this salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Jesus Christ on the cross, and is received by faith, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual. We further believe salvation results in righteous living, good works, and proper social concern. The Church
– We believe that the Church is the spiritual body of which Christ is the head. We believe that the true Church is composed of all persons who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. We believe that this body expresses itself in local assemblies whose members have been immersed upon a credible confession of faith and have associated themselves for worship, for instruction, for evangelism, and for service. We believe the ordinances of the local church are believer's baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper. We also believe in the interdependence of local churches and the mutual submission of believers to each other in love. Separation of Church and State
– We believe that each local church is self-governing in function and must be free from interference by any ecclesiastical or political authority. We further believe that every human being is directly responsible to God in matters of faith and life and that each one should be free to worship God according to the dictates of conscience. Christian Conduct
– We believe that the supreme task of believers is to glorify God in their life and that their conduct should be blameless before the world. We further believe that they should be faithful stewards of their possessions and that they should seek to realize for themselves the full stature of maturity in Christ. The Last Things
– We believe in the bodily resurrection of the saved and lost, the eternal existence of all people either in heaven or hell, in divine judgment, rewards, and punishment.

It is accurate, but it does not teach much.
 
Y

Yeshua1

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Iconoclast said:
Those confessional statements are very carefully worded and based upon many portions of Scripture to say the most you can say, in the fewest words possible
If a person had to list or post dozens of Scriptures everytime they spoke , no conversation would ever get accomplished.
It is easier to use the term trinity, than to quote in jn1:1-14, and Acts 5, and Hebrews1, Gen1....
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The are indeed very good references to check and use ,and my only real issue with them is do not see papacy as antichrist!
 
I

Iconoclast

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Yeshua1 said:
The are indeed very good references to check and use ,and my only real issue with them is do not see papacy as antichrist!
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I object to that also.
At the time it was antiChrist, and still is, but I believe he was on the scene in the first century.
 
I

Iconoclast

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Yeshua1 said:
So you are partial preterist now?
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Yes...have been looking again at postmillenial views.
The view is plain and simple, and most importantly biblical.
Studying Hebrews for two years initially forced me to re-examine things.
I was in a bible study with an Amillenial Lutheran.
He kept offering symbolic ideas on what I considered end times texts..
I thought I was answering him by going to what were considered premill texts,mt.24, Zech.14, and trying to get him to see how literal teaching lays it out.
He listened, and responded . I was not convinced by what he said, but I did realize I had not really examined the other views properly..
If you want to know what any view is, it helps to consider what those teach who hold the view, not what critics say about it.
I began to listen and read amill guys for awhile.
I came to discover some men I thought were amill, were in reality, postmillenial:Sick
I had to look at all 4 main views and start from scratch.
It takes time. I learned to investigate how do godly men differ?
I am still searching it out, but think postmill is healthy.

Here are two examples 1tim;

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

2tim;
3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


We have heard most sermons saying we are in the last days, it is getting worse and worse, only the rapture can rescue us.
These two sections were written to 1st century believers, and what if the last days spoken of were the last days of the Jewish theocracy, rather than thousands of years later as it is preached today?

We are in the Last days since the 1st century.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Iconoclast said:
Yes...have been looking again at postmillenial views.
The view is plain and simple, and most importantly biblical.
Studying Hebrews for two years initially forced me to re-examine things.
I was in a bible study with an Amillenial Lutheran.
He kept offering symbolic ideas on what I considered end times texts..
I thought I was answering him by going to what were considered premill texts,mt.24, Zech.14, and trying to get him to see how literal teaching lays it out.
He listened, and responded . I was not convinced by what he said, but I did realize I had not really examined the other views properly..
If you want to know what any view is, it helps to consider what those teach who hold the view, not what critics say about it.
I began to listen and read amill guys for awhile.
I came to discover some men I thought were amill, were in reality, postmillenial:Sick
I had to look at all 4 main views and start from scratch.
It takes time. I learned to investigate how do godly men differ?
I am still searching it out, but think postmill is healthy.

Here are two examples 1tim;

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

2tim;
3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


We have heard most sermons saying we are in the last days, it is getting worse and worse, only the rapture can rescue us.
These two sections were written to 1st century believers, and what if the last days spoken of were the last days of the Jewish theocracy, rather than thousands of years later as it is preached today?

We are in the Last days since the 1st century.
Click to expand...
I would agree been in the last days, but cannot have the fullness of the Kingdom here without King present, as he will usher that in, not the Church!
 
I

Iconoclast

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Yeshua1 said:
Taken from GE Ladd basically, his view that the Kingdom is here present, but not yet here fully, as deny realized eschatology!
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Ladd is good.
Did you read on Amill?
Did you read on postmill?s
Did you read on premill?
Ladd makes a biblical case, but what do each of the other views see differently?
 
I

Iconoclast

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257886765_3055149161275490_3661520979557088900_n.jpg
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Iconoclast said:
It is accurate, but it does not teach much.
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I think this points out a huge difference in how people view confessions, creeds, and statements of faith.

Some view these as doctrine - something to teach doctrine. But others view these as literally confessions - an expression of commonly held belief.

I'm not saying one view is better than the other, but I think it highlights at least part of the reason people are divided over the issue.

If one believes these should convey doctrine the they are very important to the congregation. But if one believes these communicate already held doctrine in summery then they are less important to the assembly.
 
I

Iconoclast

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A bare Catechism or Confession of faith is only meant to be a skeleton outline and doorway into the Scripture.
Although many verses are offered in the Confession, it is the unpacking of those verses that calls for the teaching and preaching gifts of the local elders to work through all related portions of scripture.
Any such teaching outlines a structure to Kingdom living, service, and growth, much different from the shameful booklets that are written on an elementary school level and reluctantly read through on Sundays.
I visit such a Church this past week. The sermon was okay. The Sunday school class was supposed to be about the life of Joseph. More time was spent/wasted, on personal stories, experiences, and anecdotes, than the scripture.
Were the people friendly? Yes. The only edifying thing was that a few of the men knew how to pray and find the throne of grace.
There is much work to do.
 
Y

Yeshua1

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Iconoclast said:
Ladd is good.
Did you read on Amill?
Did you read on postmill?s
Did you read on premill?
Ladd makes a biblical case, but what do each of the other views see differently?
Click to expand...
I have read a lot on Amil, as pretty much all reformed who are not Calvinist baptist seem to hold to that view, and have read both Dispy and CT premil, and do not see either preterism nor postmill as really supported in scriptures, but would still see post mil as with bounds of orthodix, unlike full preterism!
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Iconoclast said:
A bare Catechism or Confession of faith is only meant to be a skeleton outline and doorway into the Scripture.
Although many verses are offered in the Confession, it is the unpacking of those verses that calls for the teaching and preaching gifts of the local elders to work through all related portions of scripture.
Any such teaching outlines a structure to Kingdom living, service, and growth, much different from the shameful booklets that are written on an elementary school level and reluctantly read through on Sundays.
I visit such a Church this past week. The sermon was okay. The Sunday school class was supposed to be about the life of Joseph. More time was spent/wasted, on personal stories, experiences, and anecdotes, than the scripture.
Were the people friendly? Yes. The only edifying thing was that a few of the men knew how to pray and find the throne of grace.
There is much work to do.
Click to expand...
Think that many Baptist non Confessional churches are still strong in bible teaching and doctrines!
 
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