Christ Died for the Ungodly

[Iconoclast]

Yes, Christ died for the ungodly. He became the means of reconciliation for the whole world, all of humanity.
The question to ask is why are believers ambassadors of Christ, with the task of begging the lost "be reconciled to God?"
Ask yourselves, what action is required by the lost, to be reconciled? To say none is to nullify our task.

The elect that Jesus died for were ungodly, that is why he saved them.

 

[Iconoclast]

God chose His elect before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Election happened way back in eternity, calling happens in time.

You, sir, are quite badly mistaken.

Yes Ken;
Nothing wrong with your eyesight or theology here!

 

[Iconoclast]

Denial of the obvious does not negate the obvious. No one was individually chosen for salvation before they existed as "not a people." Full stop.

clueless on 1 pet...not close to truth

 

[Van]

The elect that Jesus died for were ungodly, that is why he saved them.

Yes, everyone saved was ungodly before being saved. And every one saved was chosen to be saved while being ungodly.
But, and it here where we part company, everyone was chosen by way of their faith being credited as righteousness by God.

 

[Silverhair]

If anyone should stop, sir, it is you. You sound like you are bound up by the pride of man and that you feel you must claim that YOU did something to merit YOUR salvation by YOUR own fallen, corrupted will - by repenting or believing or some such, by YOUR own decision that YOU somehow mustered up on YOUR own. I have news for you, sir - Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another. (emphasis mine)

You are trying to claim glory for yourself! Away with such a vile idea!!!!

I have to ask you a serious question?
Which do you think gives more glory to God?
I who have repented of my sins and trusted in Christ Jesus for my salvation as I realize that only God can save me.
or
You that God decided to save and then after He saves you has to give you the faith so you will repent and trust in Him

 

[Van]

clueless on 1 pet...not close to truth

Yes, Icon, you are clueless and not close to the truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, everyone saved was ungodly before being saved. And every one saved was chosen to be saved while being ungodly.
But, and it here where we part company, everyone was chosen by way of their faith being credited as righteousness by God.

God saves man...He does not credit man, as man hates the true God, and will not seek Him or His word.
A search reveals no version agrees with you Van
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

KJ21
because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
ASV
because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
AMP
the mind of the flesh [with its sinful pursuits] is actively hostile to God. It does not submit itself to God’s law, since it cannot,
AMPC
[That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God’s Law; indeed it cannot.
BRG
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
CSB
The mindset of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit to God’s law. Indeed, it is unable to do so.
CEB
So the attitude that comes from selfishness is hostile to God. It doesn’t submit to God’s Law, because it can’t.
CJB
For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God’s Torah — indeed, it cannot.
CEV
Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God’s laws.
DARBY
Because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God; for neither indeed can it be:
DLNT
Because the way-of-thinking of the flesh is hostility toward God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, for it is not even able.
DRA
Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be.
ERV
Why is this true? Because anyone whose thinking is controlled by their sinful self is against God. They refuse to obey God’s law. And really they are not able to obey it.
EHV
For the mind-set of the sinful flesh is hostile to God, since it does not submit to God’s law, and in fact, it cannot.
ESV
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
ESVUK
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
EXB
When people’s ·thinking is controlled by [or outlook/mind is set on] the ·sinful self [sinful nature; T flesh], they are ·against [hostile to] God, because they refuse to ·obey [submit to] God’s law and really are not even able to ·obey [submit to] God’s law.
GNV

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2;
Because the wisdom of the flesh is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be.
GW
This is so because the corrupt nature has a hostile attitude toward God. It refuses to place itself under the authority of God’s standards because it can’t.
GNT
And so people become enemies of God when they are controlled by their human nature; for they do not obey God's law, and in fact they cannot obey it.
HCSB
For the mind-set of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit itself to God’s law, for it is unable to do so.
ICB
This is true because if a person’s thinking is controlled by his sinful self, then he is against God. He refuses to obey God’s law. And really he is not able to obey God’s law.
ISV
That is why the mind that focuses on human nature is hostile toward God. It refuses to submit to the authority of God’s Law because it is powerless to do so.
PHILLIPS
The carnal attitude sees no further than natural things. But the spiritual attitude reaches out after the things of the spirit. The former attitude means, bluntly, death: the latter means life and inward peace. And this is only to be expected, for the carnal attitude is inevitably opposed to the purpose of God, and neither can nor will follow his laws for living. Men who hold this attitude cannot possibly please God.
JUB
because the prudence of the flesh is enmity against God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, neither indeed can it.


TLB
because the old sinful nature within us is against God. It never did obey God’s laws and it never will.

MOUNCE
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to the law of God; in fact, it is not even able to do so.
NOG
This is so because the corrupt nature has a hostile attitude toward God. It refuses to place itself under the authority of God’s standards because it can’t.
NABRE
For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it;
NASB
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
NASB1995
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
NCB
Indeed, the desires of the flesh will be hostile to God, for they do not submit to the Law of God, nor could they do so.
NCV
When people’s thinking is controlled by the sinful self, they are against God, because they refuse to obey God’s law and really are not even able to obey God’s law.
NET
because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so.
NIRV
The mind ruled by the power of sin is at war with God. It does not obey God’s law. It can’t.
NIV
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
NIVUK
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
NKJVBecause the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
NLV
The mind that thinks only of ways to please the sinful old self is fighting against God. It is not able to obey God’s Laws. It never can.
NLT
For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will.

NRSV
For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed it cannot,
NRSVA
For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed it cannot,
NRSVACE
For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed it cannot,
NRSVCE
For this reason the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law—indeed it cannot,
NTE
The mind focused on the flesh, you see, is hostile to God. It doesn’t submit to God’s law; in fact, it can’t.
OJB
Because the way of thinking of the basar is hostility, eyvah (enmity BERESHIS 3:15) toward G-d, for it does not submit itself to the Torah of G-d; for it cannot.
TPT
In fact, the mind-set focused on the flesh fights God’s plan and refuses to submit to his direction, because it cannot!
RGT
Because the wisdom of the flesh is hostility toward God. For it is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can it be.
RSV
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot;

TLV
For the mindset of the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not submit itself to the law of God—for it cannot.

 

[KenH]

Which do you think gives more glory to God?

What gives God glory is accomplishing His purposes. This idea that God is helpless and can't do anything unless man lets Him is such a bunch of rubbish. It sounds like some religious people, discussing soteriology, are in essence saying, "Poor God. He would save people if they would just let Him. But, poor God, He can't accomplish His will unless people let Him." Those people soteriology is absolutely vile. Just think of what they are saying - that Christ could have fulfilled the law, suffered and died on the cross, arose from the dead, and it would be possible that no one would be saved if no one let God save them due to man's free will. Such people really are in terrible shape spiritually. I know now that I was in a terrible shape spiritually when I was wrapped up in Pelagianism. Thanks be to God that He led me over a period of about thirty years to come to see Christ Jesus as The Lord our Righteousness and to place no confidence in human flesh.

 

[Silverhair]

What gives God glory is accomplishing His purposes. This idea that God is helpless and can't do anything unless man lets Him is such a bunch of rubbish. It sounds like some religious people, discussing soteriology, are in essence saying, "Poor God. He would save people if they would just let Him. But, poor God, He can't accomplish His will unless people let Him." Those people soteriology is absolutely vile. Just think of what they are saying - that Christ could have fulfilled the law, suffered and died on the cross, arose from the dead, and it would be possible that no one would be saved if no one let God save them due to man's free will. Such people really are in terrible shape spiritually. I know now that I was in a terrible shape spiritually when I was wrapped up in Pelagianism. Thanks be to God that He led me over a period of about thirty years to come to see Christ Jesus as The Lord our Righteousness and to place no confidence in human flesh.

First I am happy for you that you found your way out of Pelagianism.

Think what you are saying Ken, >>Christ could have fulfilled the law, suffered and died on the cross, arose from the dead,<< and it would have all been unnecessary as God did not need Christ Jesus to die as He had already picked out all those that were going to be in heaven with Him. So the crucifixion was just a show for no real purpose.

According to Calvinism God has already chosen all that will be saved or can be saved. So all those that did not make the grade are condemned and this was decided before time began. And you say a God given free will is a problem, I think not.

 

[KenH]

The merely religious man feels like he has to have some credit for his salvation, even if it is just a tiny little sliver. The merely religious man wants at least a little something of his own that he can put his trust in so that he "thinks" he knows he is saved. The merely religious man is not willing to place 100% of his trust in God to save him, thus you have people teaching that one can lose his "salvation" or that one can never be sure until they die that they are saved. The merely religious man doesn't really believe that when Jesus said, "It is finished" that He really meant "It is finished."

' If you are always losing your salvation or are still working to complete yours, you ought to hear about my Jesus.... He said, "It is finished." ' - James Nyahuye Guyo

 

[KenH]

So the crucifixion was just a show for no real purpose.

That is rubbish. Have you never heard of propitiation? Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

 

[KenH]

And you say a God given free will is a problem

Adam did have free will...and look what he did with it.

 

[Silverhair]

That is rubbish. Have you never heard of propitiation? Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Ken why do you not answer the whole post? Typical Calvinist approach you just pick out one part and treat it as the whole.

This what I posted >>Think what you are saying Ken, >>Christ could have fulfilled the law, suffered and died on the cross, arose from the dead,<< and it would have all been unnecessary as God did not need Christ Jesus to die as He had already picked out all those that were going to be in heaven with Him. So the crucifixion was just a show for no real purpose.<<

Are you unable to respond to the post? Your view of salvation makes the crucifixion and Christ Jesus being the propitiation for sins moot. The free will view does require both the crucifixion and propitiation of sin for our salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

Adam did have free will...and look what he did with it.

Are you saying that no one has a free will?

 

[KenH]

Are you saying that no one has a free will?

Can a fallen, corrupted nature be considered "free"?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

 

[KenH]

Typical Calvinist approach you just pick out one part and treat it as the whole.

I follow Christ. I don't follow John Calvin. If you want to argue over Calvinism, take it up with John Calvin.

 

[KenH]

Your view of salvation makes the crucifixion and Christ Jesus being the propitiation for sins moot.

How do you possibly arrive at such an erroneous conclusion? Are you saying that God doing 100% of salvation, including the life and death of Christ, makes Christ's death "moot"? I hope that is not what you are saying because, if so, that is either blasphemy or right next door to it.

 

[Van]

I see the Calvinist has once again copy and pasted screed. See post 27 and 28 where various translations are repeated in a pathetic effort to bolster a transparent effort to avoid discussion of the issue.

So let us stop and pick one rendering,

NASB
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Is there any dispute, if we set our mind on fleshly desires, we will be hostile to God? Nope. Does everyone agree with this view? Pretty much. So why repeat this verse more than 45 times? Was this an idiotic effort to bolster false doctrine? Go figure

Can the lost set their minds on some spiritual things? Of course, see 2 Timothy 3:15:
and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Calvinism simply rewrites verse after verse to nullify the gospel.

 

[Silverhair]

How do you possibly arrive at such an erroneous conclusion? Are you saying that God doing 100% of salvation, including the life and death of Christ, makes Christ's death "moot"? I hope that is not what you are saying because, if so, that is either blasphemy or right next door to it.

Ken as I said your view of salvation makes it so, just open your eyes and take of the blinders so you can see what is around you. I am just responding to what you have written on here. If you do not like the conclusions I have come to then look at what you are saying and correct it.