Is repentance an aspect of faith, or is repentance a good work?

[Martin Marprelate]

if you here refer to Lydia, then you will notice that it says, "who worshiped God", like Cornelius, who was "devout and fearing God"; that God sent the Message for their salvation, and helped them understand what was said. The reformed read their "election" theology into this, but fail to notice that these two were already worshipping and fearing the Lord BEFORE they heard the Gospel for their salvation!

They were 'God-fearers': Gentiles who had given up their pagan deities attended the local synagogue and heard the scribes and Pharisees preach. They were entirely ignorant of Christ.
But since you are such a big fan of Thomas Watson, let's see what he has to say about it all:

'How is repentance wrought? The manner in which repentance is wrought is:
1. Partly by the Word.
'When they heard this, they were pricked in their heart.' The word preached is the engine God uses to effect repentance. It is compared to a hammer and to a fire (Jer. 23:19), the one to break, the other to melt the heart. How great a blessing it is to have the word, which is of such virtue, dispensed! And how hard they who put out the lights of heaven will find it to escape hell!
2. By the Spirit.
Ministers are but the pipes and organs. It is the Holy Spirit breathing in them that makes their words effectual. 'While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word' (Acts 10:44). The Spirit in the word illuminates and converts. When the Spirit touches a heart it dissolves with tears. 'I will pour upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace ... and they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn' (Zech. 12:10). It is wonderful to consider what different effects the word has upon men. Some at a sermon are like Jonah: their heart is tender and they let fall tears. Others are no more affected with it than a deaf man with music. Some grow better by the word, others worse. The same earth that causes sweetness in the grape causes bitterness in the wormwood. What is the reason the word works so differently? It is because the Spirit of God carries the word to the conscience of one and not the other. One has received the divine unction and not the other (1 John 2:20). Oh pray that the dew may fall with the manna, that the Spirit may go along with the word. The chariot of ordinances will not carry us to heaven unless the Spirit of God join Himself to this chariot.'
[Thomas Watson, The Doctrine of Repentance, Chapter 1. Underlining mine]

Unless the word had come with the converting power of the Spirit to Cornelius and Lydia, they would have rejected it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

They were 'God-fearers': Gentiles who had given up their pagan deities attended the local synagogue and heard the scribes and Pharisees preach. They were entirely ignorant of Christ.
But since you are such a big fan of Thomas Watson, let's see what he has to say about it all:

'How is repentance wrought? The manner in which repentance is wrought is:
1. Partly by the Word.
'When they heard this, they were pricked in their heart.' The word preached is the engine God uses to effect repentance. It is compared to a hammer and to a fire (Jer. 23:19), the one to break, the other to melt the heart. How great a blessing it is to have the word, which is of such virtue, dispensed! And how hard they who put out the lights of heaven will find it to escape hell!
2. By the Spirit.
Ministers are but the pipes and organs. It is the Holy Spirit breathing in them that makes their words effectual. 'While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word' (Acts 10:44). The Spirit in the word illuminates and converts. When the Spirit touches a heart it dissolves with tears. 'I will pour upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace ... and they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn' (Zech. 12:10). It is wonderful to consider what different effects the word has upon men. Some at a sermon are like Jonah: their heart is tender and they let fall tears. Others are no more affected with it than a deaf man with music. Some grow better by the word, others worse. The same earth that causes sweetness in the grape causes bitterness in the wormwood. What is the reason the word works so differently? It is because the Spirit of God carries the word to the conscience of one and not the other. One has received the divine unction and not the other (1 John 2:20). Oh pray that the dew may fall with the manna, that the Spirit may go along with the word. The chariot of ordinances will not carry us to heaven unless the Spirit of God join Himself to this chariot.'
[Thomas Watson, The Doctrine of Repentance, Chapter 1. Underlining mine]

Unless the word had come with the converting power of the Spirit to Cornelius and Lydia, they would have rejected it.

did you read # 31?

 

[AustinC]

another FALSE accusation!

if you want to continue with this NONSENSE, as you have done in the past, then I suggest that you do not comment on any of my posts.

As long as you teach dead men repenting before God can make them alive...you will be utterly wrong and not supported by the writers of scripture.

 

[AustinC]

OPEN your eyes and SEE what I have written MANY times as I have in # 31, before you post your rather STUPID comments!

I have read what you write and everytime you teach repentance before God...

 

[SavedByGrace]

I have read what you write and everytime you teach repentance before God...

Jesus Christ is wrong? (Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47) The Apostle Peter is wrong? (Acts 2:37-38) The Apostle Paul is wrong? (2 Corinthians 7:10)

The four Reformed theologians in the video clip are wrong? Thomas Watson is wrong? John Calvin is wrong? A W Pink is wrong? etc, etc,. these must also, according to YOU, teach a works salvation?

Have you ever thought that YOU must be the one who is WRONG?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

lets be clear on this. NO sinner can in and of themselves ever seek the Lord and repent, as they cannot do this. It is clear that they must hear the Gospel preached, as Paul says in Romans 10, and the events in Acts 2, and then the Holy Spirit CONVICTS them through this Message, as Jesus says in John 16:8-10; and Acts 2:37, when they were CUT TO THE HEART. We also read in Acts 7, that this "convicting" by the Holy Spirit can be "resisted" (verse 51), not like the Reformed state, that God's grace cannot be resisted. If, like those in Acts 2 respond by wanting to be saved, then they must REPENT of their sins, as Peter clearly tells them in verse 38, etc.

did you read # 31?

I did see it, but I can only reply to one post at a time. It's bedtime in Britain now, but I'll try to reply sometime tomorrow. I don't know why I should though. You barely reply to mine, and when you do, you usually ignore the point.

 

[AustinC]

lets be clear on this. NO sinner can in and of themselves ever seek the Lord and repent, as they cannot do this. It is clear that they must hear the Gospel preached, as Paul says in Romans 10, and the events in Acts 2, and then the Holy Spirit CONVICTS them through this Message, as Jesus says in John 16:8-10; and Acts 2:37, when they were CUT TO THE HEART. We also read in Acts 7, that this "convicting" by the Holy Spirit can be "resisted" (verse 51), not like the Reformed state, that God's grace cannot be resisted. If, like those in Acts 2 respond by wanting to be saved, then they must REPENT of their sins, as Peter clearly tells them in verse 38, etc.

“Prevenient Grace” is a term that was used in the Remonstrance, a seventeenth-century document formulated by Jacobus Arminius and others, to protest the Calvinistic soteriology of the Reformers. The term itself simply means “grace that comes before”; but the Remonstrance cast it in terms of the grace of God given to all mankind without exception, which enables all men to respond to God's invitation and believe in the gospel. Whether or not anyone in particular does believe in the gospel, then, is conditioned upon whether he chooses to improve upon the grace which has been given indiscriminately to all. Prevenient grace, therefore, is not irresistible for the elect; it is merely persuasive and enabling, but may freely be accepted or rejected by the arbitrary choice of its subjects. This doctrine of resistible, indiscriminate prevenient grace for all men is held today in many Arminian/Wesleyan theologies and denominations throughout Christianity.

However, the doctrine of prevenient grace, as it is explained in Arminian theology, finds no support from scripture. It is true, of course, that the regenerating grace of God must come before faith, and so in that sense it is prevenient; however, this biblical prevenient grace goes far beyond the Arminian conception; when God grants his quickening grace to unbelievers, it does not merely give them the option to be alive – it makes them alive (Eph. 2:1-5; Ezek. 37:3-6, 11-14; John 1:11-13, 3:3-8; 5:21; Jam. 1:18; 1 Pet, 1:3; 1 John 5:1); it does not merely grant them the ability to come – it irresistibly draws them all without exception (John 6:37-40, 45; Psalm 65:4 Rom. 9:15); it does not merely make them able to choose good if they improve upon it – it causes them to walk in God's statues (Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Jer. 31:33; 32:40). Against the Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace, the bible teaches that there are only two classes of people: those whom the Father has chosen and given to the Son, all of whom without exception will come to him (John 6:37-40, 45); and those whom the Father has not given to the Son, who are not of his sheep, and who therefore cannot believe (John 6:65; 10:26; 12:37-41). There is no room for a third class of people who have been given God's drawing grace but who do not improve upon it. Furthermore, the doctrine of prevenient grace is specifically argued against by the apostle in 1 Cor. 4:7, which asks rhetorically, “Who made you to differ?”. Prevenient grace says that we make ourselves to differ from our unsaved neighbors, by choosing to improve upon the grace that God gave to us all without exception; hence, it is in manifest contradiction to this passage.

What does the term “prevenient grace” mean, and is it biblical?

sbw, we differ on what grace means. You have a Wesleyan thought regarding grace, which is ultimately works based.

 

[DaveXR650]

What is the reason the word works so differently? It is because the Spirit of God carries the word to the conscience of one and not the other. One has received the divine unction and not the other (1 John 2:20). Oh pray that the dew may fall with the manna, that the Spirit may go along with the word. The chariot of ordinances will not carry us to heaven unless the Spirit of God join Himself to this chariot.'

What the Puritans did was to take their belief that God is the author of our salvation and apply it through practical means. Hearing the word, hearing sermons, coming under conviction, fearing your standing before God. These are what they thought the work of the Holy Spirit was. What that did was allow them to apply every scriptural command to repent or believe no matter how it was worded and use it in ministry without worrying about possibly getting the philosophical order wrong. They did this on everything - for instance they were completely all in on election and some were into double predestination - yet knowing this they preached honest sermons and warnings to everyone knowing that those truths of God would be handled by Him. They did not fear that they would sin by telling someone they better repent. Some on here who make such a deal about these fine points need to explain why it didn't bother heavyweight Puritan theologians like Watson and Owen when they were preaching - or they need to stop doing this.

 

[SavedByGrace]

“Prevenient Grace” is a term that was used in the Remonstrance, a seventeenth-century document formulated by Jacobus Arminius and others, to protest the Calvinistic soteriology of the Reformers. The term itself simply means “grace that comes before”; but the Remonstrance cast it in terms of the grace of God given to all mankind without exception, which enables all men to respond to God's invitation and believe in the gospel. Whether or not anyone in particular does believe in the gospel, then, is conditioned upon whether he chooses to improve upon the grace which has been given indiscriminately to all. Prevenient grace, therefore, is not irresistible for the elect; it is merely persuasive and enabling, but may freely be accepted or rejected by the arbitrary choice of its subjects. This doctrine of resistible, indiscriminate prevenient grace for all men is held today in many Arminian/Wesleyan theologies and denominations throughout Christianity.

However, the doctrine of prevenient grace, as it is explained in Arminian theology, finds no support from scripture. It is true, of course, that the regenerating grace of God must come before faith, and so in that sense it is prevenient; however, this biblical prevenient grace goes far beyond the Arminian conception; when God grants his quickening grace to unbelievers, it does not merely give them the option to be alive – it makes them alive (Eph. 2:1-5; Ezek. 37:3-6, 11-14; John 1:11-13, 3:3-8; 5:21; Jam. 1:18; 1 Pet, 1:3; 1 John 5:1); it does not merely grant them the ability to come – it irresistibly draws them all without exception (John 6:37-40, 45; Psalm 65:4 Rom. 9:15); it does not merely make them able to choose good if they improve upon it – it causes them to walk in God's statues (Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Jer. 31:33; 32:40). Against the Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace, the bible teaches that there are only two classes of people: those whom the Father has chosen and given to the Son, all of whom without exception will come to him (John 6:37-40, 45); and those whom the Father has not given to the Son, who are not of his sheep, and who therefore cannot believe (John 6:65; 10:26; 12:37-41). There is no room for a third class of people who have been given God's drawing grace but who do not improve upon it. Furthermore, the doctrine of prevenient grace is specifically argued against by the apostle in 1 Cor. 4:7, which asks rhetorically, “Who made you to differ?”. Prevenient grace says that we make ourselves to differ from our unsaved neighbors, by choosing to improve upon the grace that God gave to us all without exception; hence, it is in manifest contradiction to this passage.

What does the term “prevenient grace” mean, and is it biblical?

sbw, we differ on what grace means. You have a Wesleyan thought regarding grace, which is ultimately works based.

Iain Murray reformed theologian from Scotland and another reformed pastor I know, Rowland Burrows, both think very highly of John Wesley and his theology, as do other reformed scholars.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I did see it, but I can only reply to one post at a time. It's bedtime in Britain now, but I'll try to reply sometime tomorrow. I don't know why I should though. You barely reply to mine, and when you do, you usually ignore the point.

Apologies brother I too am from England and it is 00.00 hours now

I will try to respond more to your comments

God bless

 

[AustinC]

Iain Murray reformed theologian from Scotland and another reformed pastor I know, Rowland Burrows, both think very highly of John Wesley and his theology, as do other reformed scholars.

You seem to mistake Arminian Wesleyanism with Reformed theology.

 

[DaveXR650]

Iain Murray reformed theologian from Scotland and another reformed pastor I know, Rowland Burrows, both think very highly of John Wesley and his theology, as do other reformed scholars.

So did Martyn Lloyd-Jones. "Calvinism without Methodism tends to lead to intellectualism and scholasticism - that is it's peculiar temptation." from "The Puritans" by D.M. Lloyd-Jones.

 

[DaveXR650]

Edit: Martyn Lloyd-Jones thought highly of the man John Wesley, but thought he was saved in spite of his "muddled and erroneous thinking".

 

[Guido]

I challenge you to show me one verse in the Bible containing a direct grammatical and semantic signification that repentance from sins leads to salvation from eternal hellfire, whether by literal or figurative words.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You seem to mistake Arminian Wesleyanism with Reformed theology.

wrong!

 

[SavedByGrace]

I challenge you to show me one verse in the Bible containing a direct grammatical and semantic signification that repentance from sins leads to salvation from eternal hellfire, whether by literal or figurative words.

Acts 2:37-38

what do I win?

 

[SavedByGrace]

“Prevenient Grace” is a term that was used in the Remonstrance, a seventeenth-century document formulated by Jacobus Arminius and others, to protest the Calvinistic soteriology of the Reformers. The term itself simply means “grace that comes before”; but the Remonstrance cast it in terms of the grace of God given to all mankind without exception, which enables all men to respond to God's invitation and believe in the gospel. Whether or not anyone in particular does believe in the gospel, then, is conditioned upon whether he chooses to improve upon the grace which has been given indiscriminately to all. Prevenient grace, therefore, is not irresistible for the elect; it is merely persuasive and enabling, but may freely be accepted or rejected by the arbitrary choice of its subjects. This doctrine of resistible, indiscriminate prevenient grace for all men is held today in many Arminian/Wesleyan theologies and denominations throughout Christianity.

However, the doctrine of prevenient grace, as it is explained in Arminian theology, finds no support from scripture. It is true, of course, that the regenerating grace of God must come before faith, and so in that sense it is prevenient; however, this biblical prevenient grace goes far beyond the Arminian conception; when God grants his quickening grace to unbelievers, it does not merely give them the option to be alive – it makes them alive (Eph. 2:1-5; Ezek. 37:3-6, 11-14; John 1:11-13, 3:3-8; 5:21; Jam. 1:18; 1 Pet, 1:3; 1 John 5:1); it does not merely grant them the ability to come – it irresistibly draws them all without exception (John 6:37-40, 45; Psalm 65:4 Rom. 9:15); it does not merely make them able to choose good if they improve upon it – it causes them to walk in God's statues (Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Jer. 31:33; 32:40). Against the Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace, the bible teaches that there are only two classes of people: those whom the Father has chosen and given to the Son, all of whom without exception will come to him (John 6:37-40, 45); and those whom the Father has not given to the Son, who are not of his sheep, and who therefore cannot believe (John 6:65; 10:26; 12:37-41). There is no room for a third class of people who have been given God's drawing grace but who do not improve upon it. Furthermore, the doctrine of prevenient grace is specifically argued against by the apostle in 1 Cor. 4:7, which asks rhetorically, “Who made you to differ?”. Prevenient grace says that we make ourselves to differ from our unsaved neighbors, by choosing to improve upon the grace that God gave to us all without exception; hence, it is in manifest contradiction to this passage.

What does the term “prevenient grace” mean, and is it biblical?

sbw, we differ on what grace means. You have a Wesleyan thought regarding grace, which is ultimately works based.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO8-fZH2ky8

ARE THESE ALSO WRONG?

 

[atpollard]

God enables the person to repent and believe

So it is God who repents and believes for the sinner.

Come on people, as two Christians you should at least LISTEN to what YOUR BROTHER is saying respond honestly.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What the Puritans did was to take their belief that God is the author of our salvation and apply it through practical means. Hearing the word, hearing sermons, coming under conviction, fearing your standing before God. These are what they thought the work of the Holy Spirit was. What that did was allow them to apply every scriptural command to repent or believe no matter how it was worded and use it in ministry without worrying about possibly getting the philosophical order wrong. They did this on everything - for instance they were completely all in on election and some were into double predestination - yet knowing this they preached honest sermons and warnings to everyone knowing that those truths of God would be handled by Him. They did not fear that they would sin by telling someone they better repent. Some on here who make such a deal about these fine points need to explain why it didn't bother heavyweight Puritan theologians like Watson and Owen when they were preaching - or they need to stop doing this.

Indeed. There is an unfortunate strain of Hyper-Calvinism among some people on this board which is serving to obscure the case for true Biblical Calvinism.

 

[kyredneck]

Ho hum!

God grants repentance, THEN one can recover from the snare of the devil:

23 But foolish and ignorant questionings refuse, knowing that they gender strifes.
24 And the Lord`s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. 2 Tim 2

Christ did not 'grant repentance unto knowledge of the truth' to the Jews by speaking to them in riddles and dark sayings:

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parables.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them. Mk 4