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Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by RipponRedeaux, Dec 14, 2021.

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  1. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    What follows is a snippet of his Nov. 1, 2021 article called What Word Should I Study, And Why Italics Annoy Me.

    His reference is taken from the NKJV of Philippians 2:22 in which it says : Jesus Christ Is Lord. [I put it in bold print instead of italics]

    It is the use of italics that annoys me. Every first year Greek student knows that kuploc is a predicate noun, and as a predicate noun the verb is part of the grammar. The translators are not adding is to the Bible, as if the word were not represented in the Greek. Of course it is. It is a predicate noun.

    As long as translations continue this practice, it promulgates the myth that accurate translations are word-for-word; and when English requires a word not directly represented in the Greek, the translators are somehow adding to the text. Can we please move past this?

    It is a defective view of language and does a disservice to our people to suggest that faithful translation must be word-for-word. Faithful translation is one that faithfully conveys the meaning of the original into the target language, not its form.
     
    #1 RipponRedeaux, Dec 14, 2021
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  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ? ? ? Philippians 2:22, ". . . But ye know the proof of him, that, as a son with the father, he hath served with me in the gospel. . . .," ? ? ?
     
    #2 37818, Dec 14, 2021
  3. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I should have checked his reference out for myself.
    It's Philippians 2:11
    and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
     
    #3 RipponRedeaux, Dec 15, 2021
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  4. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Everyone wants to be a textual critic. :Wink
     
    #4 RighteousnessTemperance&, Dec 15, 2021
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  5. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    #5 RighteousnessTemperance&, Dec 15, 2021
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  6. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    The article begins:

    Everyone likes to do a Greek word study. Of all the things that we learn in Greek class, this is the one that stays with us the longest. The trick, of course, is to know which words to study. I was at the Biblical Literacy Conference in Philadelphia this weekend, and Sunday morning we had a reading from Genesis 1–3. I saw one of the really important hints as to which word to study[.]

    The reading was from the NKJV. In Genesis 1:29 it says, “And God said, ‘See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.’” Really? God gave us “herbs” to eat? Season our food, yes. But eat?

    This is the first clue that a word needs to be studied. The translation simply makes no sense. You don’t eat herbs.​

    This guy has me all confused, or perhaps is himself confused. He speaks of Greek but quotes the OT, which I had thought was originally in Hebrew. And then proceeds to "word study" the word for seed-bearing plants but entirely forgets to "word study" the word for eat, which also might help better understand the passage.
     
    #6 RighteousnessTemperance&, Dec 15, 2021
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  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The italicized verb tells the reader that Greek verb is not in the text. This annoys the Greek scholar who knows why the verb in English is suppose to be there as part of the proper translation.
     
    #7 37818, Dec 15, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2021
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  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Another example of why I avoid mounce
     
    #8 Revmitchell, Dec 15, 2021
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    One issue is often the verb is actually in the text as it is a part of the Greek word (not a separate word, but at the same time not really an addition).
     
    #9 JonC, Dec 15, 2021
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Then it is shown italicized.
     
    #10 37818, Dec 15, 2021
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Should both words (in English) be italicized to indicate the Greek word cannot be accurately translated with one English word?

    I ask because many mistakingly see italicized words as not a part of the original text or as an additional when sometimes the Greek word simply cannot be translated accurately with one English word.
     
    #11 JonC, Dec 15, 2021
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    John 4:24, ". . . God is a Spirit: . . ."
     
    #12 37818, Dec 15, 2021
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Assist in translation words are used all the time. A word not explicitly in the text might be italicized. A definite article if added is not italicized.
     
    #13 37818, Dec 15, 2021
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Words generally in italics because they are to be understood not to be actually as part of the text. KJV, ASV, NASB, NKJV, and MLV are versions which use the practice.

    In the KJV compare Matthew 26:17 with Mark 14:12. Two different interpertations.
     
    #14 37818, Dec 15, 2021
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I guess my question is if the word is implied in the original.

    There are interesting things that come out with "literal" vs what words mean.

    For example, were we to stick strictly to "word for word" then we would say that God "has a long nose instead of God being "long suffering".

    Another example is hilasmos, which is often translated "expiation" or "propitiation". Literally both of these fall short and typically we settle for "propitiation" because it is inexchanging one word for another word.
     
    #15 JonC, Dec 15, 2021
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Where is that word in question used to refer to the nose?
     
    #16 37818, Dec 15, 2021
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Exodus 34:6

    "Litterally" God has long noses. But sometimes "literal" is not literal.
     
    #17 JonC, Dec 15, 2021
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A Hebrew idiom.
    Ancient Hebrew Idioms | AHRC
     
    #18 37818, Dec 15, 2021
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It is. My point is the object of a translation is not to render each word verbatim but to communicate the meaning of the words in another language.

    Some words, like Φιλοξενία , simply cannot be accurately translated (it goes beyond mere hospitality or entertaining strangers).

    Κοψοφλεβικα is a contemporary example.
     
    #19 JonC, Dec 15, 2021
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Did the Holy Spirit inspire word by word, or thought by thought in the Originals?
     
    #20 Yeshua1, Dec 15, 2021
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