Flaws of Arminianism

[DaveXR650]

The body became mortal, and a moral corruption entered which was propagated to the posterity, and gradually becomes greater and greater. Freedom of will, in the sense of power to good, is not wholly lost, but it is very much weakened. Man in his present condition is morally diseased. The imputation of original sin is removed in baptism, and without baptism no one attains salvation. Owing to his morally diseased and weakened condition, man needs the assistance of divine grace, in order to the practice of holiness, and the attainment of salvation. The moral freedom of man, or his power to good, works in connection with divine grace. The two things are not to be separated from each other. There is no unconditional decree of God, but predestination to salvation or to perdition depends upon the use which man makes of the remainder of his freedom to good. The decree of election is therefore a conditional one; God determines to bestow forgiveness and assisting influences upon those who he foresees will make a beginning. And yet the merit of his salvation man must not ascribe to himself, but to the grace of God, because without this grace man's endeavors would be unsuccessful. "Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism" by W.G.T. Shedd

This is Shedds take on semi Pelagianism. This quote starts with the condition of mankind after Adam and Eve's sin. It's a good article from the Monergism website. Now there are parts in it about baptism and so on that we would all not agree with but what is interesting is the take on man's ability and responsibility. I think this is what most Baptists teach nowadays. I don't agree with it as I think the Calvinistic position is better, but I do NOT think this is a heresy.

 

[robycop3]

Only those written into the covenant.

The covenant is not a free sign up to receive a coupon. The covenant is a will, written out to those who inherit what the Father has given them upon the death of Christ Jesus on the cross.
Only those to whom Jesus calls out their name will hear and believe.
This is the consistent teaching of God and the expression of any covenant. You have a fantasy that makes you feel like you are in charge, but it's just your fantasy, not God's teaching.

FALSE!
Proven false by Scripture:
Matt. 10:32“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 12:50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Mark 8:34When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Luke 6:47Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:
Luke 12:8“Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.
John 11:26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 12:46I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
Acts2:21And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’
Acts 10:35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Acts 10:43To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
Romans 10:11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Romans 10:13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Lots of "whoevers". Not one "whoever if..." !

 

[Van]

Semi Pelagianism teaches what you have been saying; that a person has in their natural state the ability to come to faith in Christ without any further help. Semi Pelagianism is not a heresy in my view. It is the most common view of most evangelicals nowadays. Semi Pelagianism does not deny that God reveals himself or that you have to hear the gospel. Semi Pelagianism does not deny grace or unmerited favor in the sense that they are fully on board with believing that you can be saved only by the merits of Christ. Based on your posts, I do think you are a semi Pelagian. I do not think that is a heresy. Many on here do but I do not charge you with a heresy. I fully understand the way some of the Calvinists on here do things so I kind of understand your reaction. You started a thread and I thought you would show what was wrong with Arminianism. Calvinism shouldn't even enter in this discussion. You said in the above post that "no one comes to me unless drawn (attracted by the father). That would not be a semi Pelagian position.
Just like in post 21 you take both sides of a position. Let me know who wins.

On and on this poster posts obvious falsehood. Semi Pelagianism is considered a heresy. Now he posts that "no one comes to me unless drawn (John 6:44) is not Semi-Plagiarism, however after I posted that view, (Post #21) he charged me with holding a Semi Pelagian view. Then he charges me with taking both sides of a position.

Bottom line, rather than discussing the flaws of Arminianism, this poster simply claims my views are not my views, but reflect his falsehoods. What a waste...

 

[DaveXR650]

Since the lost have limited spiritual ability, able to understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food, there is no basis for the invention of "irresistible grace" or "prevenient grace" to overcome a non-existent condition.

Semi-Pelagian. And no, it's not a heresy.

 

[DaveXR650]

Why don't you get back to your OP and explain the flaws of Arminianism without going in a semi-Pelagian direction.

 

[Van]

Semi-Pelagian. And no, it's not a heresy.

Obviously this poster thinks he can make up his own definition of Semi-Pelagianism and then claim his definition is not hogwash.
Total Spiritual Inability is hogwash, as demonstrated by passage after passage. The claim that anyone who denies that biblical falsehood is Semi-Pelagian is simply Calvinist smokescreed.

Semipelagian thought teaches that the latter half – growing in faith – is the work of God, while the beginning of faith is an act of free will, with grace supervening only later.[1] It too was labeled heresy by the Western Church at the Second Council of Orange in 529. (Wikipedia)

"Semi-Pelagianism" has frequently been used in a pejorative sense.[5][12][9] (Wikipedia)​

 

[DaveXR650]

d) Is all the spiritual ability we need to trust in Christ given to us as humans? Yes

No one comes to the Father unless they were drawn by the Father.

You make false charges against yourself. The first quote is semi-Pelagian, The second is more Arminian. Some semi-Pelagians may agree with a mild "drawing" by the Holy Spirit.

Total spiritual inability is hogwash to semi-Pelagians. What about Arminians?

 

[Van]

You make false charges against yourself. The first quote is semi-Pelagian, The second is more Arminian. Some semi-Pelagians may agree with a mild "drawing" by the Holy Spirit.

Total spiritual inability is hogwash to semi-Pelagians. What about Arminians?

You are obviously posting your own views as if they are accurate. However, they are hogwash. My view is not and has never been Semi-Pelagianism, whereas your acceptance of the unbiblical Total Spiritual Inability is false and unbiblical doctrine.

Having the ability to believe false doctrine is demonstrated by your acceptance of your views. Thus you are claiming you are a Semi-Pelagian. Or a rational mind might agree, the issue is not the ability to believe, but the ability to believe something not revealed or allowed by God. But no, you continue your assault on truth...

 

[DaveXR650]

Well Van, I am posting my own views as if they are accurate. Isn't that what everybody does? You accuse me of accepting the "unbiblical Total Spiritual Inability" and then in the next paragraph you claim I am a semi-Pelagian. We won't have any meaningful discussion so let's see how this goes without me being involved. Have a nice day.

 

[Van]

Well Van, I am posting my own views as if they are accurate. Isn't that what everybody does? You accuse me of accepting the "unbiblical Total Spiritual Inability" and then in the next paragraph you claim I am a semi-Pelagian. We won't have any meaningful discussion so let's see how this goes without me being involved. Have a nice day.

If true, that is a great idea. Views that are irrational nonsense are not "accurate."

What are the flaws of Arminianism that this thread identified:
1) God chooses those whose faith He credits as righteousness during their lifetime, not before creation.

2) Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that the unregenerate can believe in God and seek God yet be turned away by false teachings.

3) Those that fall way were never saved, thus "loss of salvation" is a false premise.

4) The election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, and therefore not individual as claimed by Arminianism.

 

[AustinC]

If true, that is a great idea. Views that are irrational nonsense are not "accurate."

What are the flaws of Arminianism that this thread identified:
1) God chooses those whose faith He credits as righteousness during their lifetime, not before creation.

2) Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that the unregenerate can believe in God and seek God yet be turned away by false teachings.

3) Those that fall way were never saved, thus "loss of salvation" is a false premise.

4) The election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, and therefore not individual as claimed by Arminianism.

Are these 4 things flaws of Arminianism or flaws of Vanianism?

 

[Van]

Did anyone say people have the ability to respond to the gospel "correctly?" How about if the lost respond incorrectly but God credits their flawed faith as righteousness? The belief that if the lost believe all the right things with the right sincerity they come to "saving faith" is a myth.

Did anyone say people come to "saving faith?" Or do people come to faith in Christ and God chooses to credit some of those faiths as righteousness? God credits our faith, as flawed as it may be, by His sovereign choice and not because our faith merited salvation.

Does "God's work" on our behalf involve:
a) Christ's death? Yes
b) Christ's resurrection? Yes
c) Setting up a "framework whereby we are now free to come to Christ? Nope
d) Is all the spiritual ability we need to trust in Christ given to us as humans? Yes
e) Does the opportunity to believe come to all humans? Nope as some of the lost have "hardened" their hearts.
f) Did God "harden" the hearts of some for His purpose? Yes

Can anyone "come to Christ" unless allowed by God? Nope
Can anyone come to Christ unless drawn by the Father? Nope
Can anyone come to Christ unless they have heard and learned from the Father? Nope

 

[Van]

Are these 4 things flaws of Arminianism or flaws of Vanianism?

Are you an idiot or do you just post that way? All Calvinists do is change the subject to avoid biblical truth.

 

[agedman]

Are these 4 things flaws of Arminianism or flaws of Vanianism?

This is a worthy insight.

@Van states:

1) God chooses those whose faith He credits as righteousness during their lifetime, not before creation.

2) Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that the unregenerate can believe in God and seek God yet be turned away by false teachings.

3) Those that fall way were never saved, thus "loss of salvation" is a false premise.

4) The election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, and therefore not individual as claimed by Arminianism.​

• 1) Presents God as passive until the unregenerate's faith is credited by God who at that time chooses them. A very convoluted presentation and not at all as Scripture present.
• 2) He takes the statement of Matthew from the Jewish presentation and makes it into some kind of Gentile freedom. He even presents that God's work is capable of being prevented by false teachers.
• 3) He is correct to question if those that fall away were ever saved, for John makes such a statement in 1 John by saying, "They left us because they were not part of us." (my paraphrased version ) However, such falling away results in the teaching that is heretical and contrary to the fundamentals of the faith, not drifting into sinful lifestyle.
  
• 4) There is never a "corporate election" found in the Scriptures. There is only the election of individuals, and from those individuals are formed the corporate body (the church). For the Lord specifically states that He gives the measure of faith to individuals that the work given to that person be specific to that of the local church. I know of no Arminian thinking folks that do not teach some form of corporate election as well as some kind of preceding or prevenient grace.

@Van will of course (for it is his nature) make some remark(s) discrediting this post rather than becoming aware of his own error.

He is correct that Arminian thinking can be taken (as can Calvinist thinking) into error. This is why a believer must continue to study and mature in the things of the Scriptures and hold fast to sound fundamental doctrine.

He is also to be admired for seeking and expressing the areas of correction needed in the Arminian thinking.

It is unfortunate that in doing so he does include his own view which has been showed to have some areas needing correction, too.

 

[Van]

SNIP

1) Presents God as passive until the unregenerate's faith is credited by God who at that time chooses them. A very convoluted presentation and not at all as Scripture present.

• 2) He takes the statement of Matthew from the Jewish presentation and makes it into some kind of Gentile freedom. He even presents that God's work is capable of being prevented by false teachers.
• 3) He is correct to question if those that fall away were ever saved, for John makes such a statement in 1 John by saying, "They left us because they were not part of us." (my paraphrased version ) However, such falling away results in the teaching that is heretical and contrary to the fundamentals of the faith, not drifting into sinful lifestyle.
  
• 4) There is never a "corporate election" found in the Scriptures. There is only the election of individuals, and from those individuals are formed the corporate body (the church). For the Lord specifically states that He gives the measure of faith to individuals that the work given to that person be specific to that of the local church. I know of no Arminian thinking folks that do not teach some form of corporate election as well as some kind of preceding or prevenient grace.

SNIP
.

Calvinists cannot keep themselves from posting obvious error. They do this to change the subject from what I say to what they say I say, which is of course disinformation.

Is God "passive" before He credits a believer's faith as righteousness? Of course not. Did I say or suggest God was? Nope
So an out and out falsehood to start with. How about God "allowing" a person to trust in Christ? No mention. How about drawing a person? No mention. How about God's revelatory grace? No mention. So a complete fabrication by a falsehood spewing Calvinist. And so it goes.

Did I say "God's work?" Nope. Did I say false teachers can prevent people in the process of entering the Kingdom from entering? You bet, because that is what Jesus says in Matthew 23:13.

Does this fount of falsehood claim I said something concerning something in Matthew, but without specifics? Yes, thus disparagement would any actual reference. Why, because the charge is yet another falsehood. Did I say Gentile freedom? Nope, but so it goes. One falsehood after another.

Next, once saved, always saved is claimed to enable a false teaching, again without any specific mention of the false teaching. Innuendo is the stock and trade of false teachers. First they imply something, then claim they never said it. Go figure.

This Calvinist denies the concept of "corporate election" being "found in scriptures." However, Dr. Dan B. Wallace says both individual and corporate elections are "intertwined" in Paul's writings. Next he falsely claims corporate elections are comprised of individual elections. Total hogwash demonstrates either ignorance and ignominy. If I go to the store to buy oranges, I do not first select the individual oranges, and then choose those. Nope, I go to the orange bin, and reach in, thus my corporate election of oranges is completed before I choose a single one. But this Calvinist denial of the obvious is posted over and over.

Finally the falsehood of the "measure of faith" supposedly referring to the fictional "gift of faith" is once again regurgitated. The actual phrase refers to the area of ministry given to each member of the body of Christ.

 

[Van]

Corporate election is conditional, on an aspect or on aspects, of that to be corporately chosen. In my prior example, I used oranges, but let us say "those redeemed." So when God chose His Redeemer, the Lamb of God, He corporately chose those who would be redeemed, not individually but as the target group of His redemption plan. Their individual, not corporate election occurs when God transfers them into Christ (the sanctification by the Spirit) of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 based on crediting their faith in the truth as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, 4:23-24.

Thus even the Arminians who believe Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election, they still have it wrong.

 

[atpollard]

FALSE!
Proven false by Scripture:
Matt. 10:32“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 12:50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Mark 8:34When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Luke 6:47Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:
Luke 12:8“Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.
John 11:26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 12:46I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
Acts2:21And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’
Acts 10:35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Acts 10:43To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
Romans 10:11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Romans 10:13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Lots of "whoevers". Not one "whoever if..." !

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written:
“THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;
12 THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME [fn]CORRUPT;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE VENOM OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14 “THEIR MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN THE WAY OF PEACE.”
18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”​

Who does that leave as "whoever"?

Romans 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

John 6:43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop complaining among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”​

 

[robycop3]

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written:
“THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;
12 THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME [fn]CORRUPT;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE VENOM OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14 “THEIR MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN THE WAY OF PEACE.”
18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”​

Who does that leave as "whoever"?

Romans 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

John 6:43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop complaining among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”​

We don't know if any of those Pharisees later chose to believe in Jesus. Only Pharisee we know for certain came to believe in Him was Paul, after Jesus made him "an offer he couldn't refuse". But, of course, He'd pre-chosen Paul to become an apostle.

We see God has pre-chosen people ever since Noah to be of special service to Him, but what He hasn't done & won't do is pre-choose people for hell, which He created for Satan & his angels. Remember, Jesus even gave Judas a clear chance to repent He let Judas know that He knew Judas' plan. When the time for the beast/antichrist comes, He will remove all restrictions so someone will willingly allow Satan to indwell him in a type of Faustian deal, so he declares himself to be God & may even believe it.And the false prophet will willingly serve that man, & Satan as well. But it'll be of their own free will.

I will keep repeating that God has given every being He created free will. He wants beings who will love & serve Him willingly; if He'd wanted robots incapable of the slightest disobedience, He coulda easily created them.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Only Pharisee we know for certain came to believe in Him was Paul,

You're forgetting the very notable Nicodemus. See John 3; 7 and 19. Although for most Christians John 3:1-14 is most memorable.

 

[JesusFan]

FALSE!
Proven false by Scripture:
Matt. 10:32“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 12:50For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”
Mark 8:34When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
Luke 6:47Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like:
Luke 12:8“Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.
John 11:26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 12:46I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
Acts2:21And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’
Acts 10:35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
Acts 10:43To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
Romans 10:11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
Romans 10:13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Lots of "whoevers". Not one "whoever if..." !

All of those are speaking towards the Elect chosen by the Father to now be found in Christ