Is salvation available?

[Dave G]

says your theology, the Bible DISAGREES with you!

"O stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always RESIST (ἀντιπίπτω, to be adverse, oppose, strive against) the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so you do" (Acts 7:51)

The context here is salvation.

I see that the context there is mankind's hardened heart towards God, specifically His nation of Israel.
It has no bearing on God's choice to save someone, and does not impede Him from carrying out His will.

What it proves is our unwillingness, as a race, to come to the Lord in repentance, and only reinforces what the Lord tells us in Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Jeremiah 13:23 and many others.

Jesus Himself told the Jews who wanted to murder Him;

"and you are NOT WILLING come to Me that you might have life" (John 5:40)

I agree, my friend.
Please see immediately above.

 

[Van]

Calvinism = You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome of your life or for the lives of your loved ones. The gospel is good news for some and bad news for the rest..

Biblical Doctrine = Everyone believing in Christ (as decided by God crediting their faith as righteousness) will not perish but have everlasting life. Since if people had seen Christ's miracles, they would have repented, God has not predetermined who can respond to the gospel message.

The election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, not individual, because those chosen to be God's people, existed as not a people before they were a people. Thus 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes an individual election for salvation before creation. Thus, we are chosen for salvation individually during our lifetime through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore salvation is available to the lost and God has not precluded the opportunity.

Two very different gospels..

 

[AustinC]

Calvinism = You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome of your life or for the lives of your loved ones. The gospel is good news for some and bad news for the rest..

Biblical Doctrine = Everyone believing in Christ (as decided by God crediting their faith as righteousness) will not perish but have everlasting life. Since if people had seen Christ's miracles, they would have repented, God has not predetermined who can respond to the gospel message.

The election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, not individual, because those chosen to be God's people, existed as not a people before they were a people. Thus 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes an individual election for salvation before creation. Thus, we are chosen for salvation individually during our lifetime through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore salvation is available to the lost and God has not precluded the opportunity.

Two very different gospels..

Vanism or Calvinism...you decide!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world is precisely that,
The same as 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:6-24, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, and 1 Peter 1:2 all state...
and I find myself continually amazed that you're not seeing the very words on the page.

To me Ephesians 1:4 clearly says two things, not one....

1) The believers at Ephesus were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
2) so that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

How you keep missing the first part I do not know for sure, but the words are clear to me.

If what you say is correct then the preaching of the Gospel to sinners for their salvation is completely pointless

 

[SavedByGrace]

Vanism or Calvinism...you decide!

Both ERROR

 

[SavedByGrace]

" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." ( 1 Corinthians 1:21-25 ).

That is why, SBG...

Because the Lord has decided to gather his people to Himself using what is foolish to men...
Preaching Christ and Him crucified for sinners.

There is no point in preaching to the Elect who can only be saved as they are already chosen for this purpose

 

[DaveXR650]

So, a Christian can be held responsible and accountable for others going to the eternal flame?

Can you cite some scripture?

I might be overlooking something but I don't think there are verses that directly say that. A couple of old testament verses come close but you could argue the application I guess. We are told to be ready to give a reason for the hope that lies in us. We are told to imitate Paul in Phillipians chapter 3 and he was after all a messenger to the gentiles. We are told to love our neighbors which covers a lot of areas but surely being concerned about their eternal souls would be included in that. We are given the great commission of course. We always argue Ephesians 1 and 2 but later in Ephesians we are told we are to do good works. I don't think that relegates us to social work, does it?

"On the day of judgement there'll be those bound for hell that will point the fingers at you and say "I'm going to hell because you never told me about Jesus Christ".

Is that what you believe?

I don't know how much we will be able to converse with those who are about to be damned but I could see them making that accusation if I hung around with them, and worked with them and never said anything so yes, I do believe that could happen. I also believe that those us who are saved are bought with a price and owned by Jesus and it is possible for us to be unprofitable servants. You could spend a lot of time arguing whether that is possible if you are predestined to be one of His but you can just as well argue that the warning is real and it is a means to keep you from becoming that useless servant and your concern and worry that you could fail is what God uses as a means to keep you from failing.

 

[Dave G]

If what you say is correct then the preaching of the Gospel to sinners for their salvation is completely pointless

Not by any stretch of the imagination, my friend.
Rather, it fulfills God's purposes.

 

[Dave G]

There is no point in preaching to the Elect who can only be saved as they are already chosen for this purpose

Please read the below again...
The reasons for Him causing men to preach the Gospel of His grace, accomplish more than simply gathering the elect to God, spiritually:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 ).

Did you get all that, my friend?
There are several reasons that the Lord uses the preaching of the cross here:

1) To confound those of this world that are wise in their own eyes.
2) To confound the things of this world that we, as men, consider mighty.
3) To demonstrate the power of God to those who are called, those whom He has saved.
4) All in order that no flesh, no man, may glory or be prideful in His sight.

It is of God that anyone is in Christ Jesus.
To the unbeliever the Lord Jesus is made a stumblingblock and foolishness, and to the believer He is made wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.


Good evening to you.

 

[Van]

Calvinism = You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome of your life or for the lives of your loved ones. The gospel is good news for some and bad news for the rest..

Biblical Doctrine = Everyone believing in Christ (as decided by God crediting their faith as righteousness) will not perish but have everlasting life. Since if people had seen Christ's miracles, they would have repented, God has not predetermined who can respond to the gospel message.

The election of Ephesians 1:4 was corporate, not individual, because those chosen to be God's people, existed as not a people before they were a people. Thus 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes an individual election for salvation before creation. Thus, we are chosen for salvation individually during our lifetime through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Therefore salvation is available to the lost and God has not precluded the opportunity.

Two very different gospels..

John 3:16 God sacrificially loved humanity is this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 11:21
“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that occurred in you had occurred in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

 

[Dave G]

You were saved or damned from all eternity for all eternity and there is nothing you can do to alter that outcome of your life or for the lives of your loved ones.

Romans 8:29-30.
Romans 9:6-24.

The gospel is good news for some and bad news for the rest..

The Bible clearly says,
The Gospel ( the preaching of the cross ) is foolishness to them that perish, while it is the power of God to them that are saved ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

It is believed by some, and rejected by most.

God has not predetermined who can respond to the gospel message.

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 ).

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." ( John 10:25-28 ).

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. " ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

The Bible teaches differently, Van, in many places.
Please read it again, my friend.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Not by any stretch of the imagination, my friend.
Rather, it fulfills God's purposes.

how so?

 

[SavedByGrace]

To the unbeliever the Lord Jesus is made a stumblingblock and foolishness, and to the believer He is made wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption

so, when you were an unbeliever, before you were saved, the Gospel was not a stubling-block and foolishness?

WHO puts this stumbling-block before those who do not believe?

 

[AustinC]

Both ERROR

Ah...the third option of saved by works...

 

[SavedByGrace]

It is believed by some, and rejected by most

How is the Gospel be "rejected" by most, when you have said earlier that no one can "resist" the Lord? Further, to be able to REJECT the Gospel, these must have a FREE WILL to do so, or are you saying that they have been foreordained to do this?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ah...the third option of saved by works...

you might believe in this heresy, but don't try to make out that I do

 

[Van]

Romans 8:29-30.
Romans 9:6-24.

The Bible clearly says,
The Gospel ( the preaching of the cross ) is foolishness to them that perish, while it is the power of God to them that are saved ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

It is believed by some, and rejected by most.

" And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 ).

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ).

" Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." ( John 10:25-28 ).

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. " ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

The Bible teaches differently, Van, in many places.
Please read it again, my friend.

None of the cited verses say or suggest the lost are unable to understand and believe spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.

1) Does the bible say the gospel is foolishness to them that perish? Nope. It is foolishness to those who (1) have heard the gospel message, and (2) have rejected that message. This verse does not say none of the lost can hear and accept the gospel, the fictional bogus interpretation of Calvinism.

2) John 6:65 does not say God does not allow people to choose life, only that God does disallow some (like Judas) for His purpose.

3) To be "of God" refers to being open to God's word, but those "not of God" are not open to God's word. For example in Matthew 13, the first soil was not "of God" but the second, third and fourth soils were "of God." However, after hearing, the second and third soils did not deeply or fully embrace the gospel.

4) To be "of My Sheep" refers to being open to God's word, and those not of My sheep are not open to God's word.

5) "My sheep" are those God has placed into Christ, thus they belong to Christ, and Christ "knows" them. Different group than those "of My sheep."

6) Acts 13:48 indicates those that accepted the gospel direction to eternal life believed. No support for Calvinism in the verse.

Yes, the bible teaches over and over a very different gospel than the one proclaiming futility.

 

[Aaron]

Really? WHY the need to preach the Gospel at all, ...

First, God is not constrained by any necessity. Second, Why Preach? Because that is the will of God, and we love doing it.

...when it is clear for Calvinistic theology, that all those who God has preordained to eternal life, the elect, WILL be saved???

By the same reasoning I could ask, why do you pray at all, when it clear for your free will thinking that God does not prevail over the will of man? By your thinking, the Catholics were doing it right with the Inquisition.

These are supposed to be chosen before the foundation of the world, as the elect. So, WHAT is the purpose of even telling them the Good News, as they WILL be saved???

The will and purpose of God according to election.

Such is the NONSENSE this UNBIBLICAL man-made theology teaches!

You have to stop confusing biblical theology with your carnal imaginations.

 

[SavedByGrace]

First, God is not constrained by any necessity. Second, Why Preach? Because that is the will of God, and we love doing it.

By the same reasoning I could ask, why do you pray at all, when it clear for your free will thinking that God does not prevail over the will of man? By your thinking, the Catholics were doing it right with the Inquisition.

The will and purpose of God according to election.

You have to stop confusing biblical theology with your carnal imaginations.

Why does Jesus Christ say in Mark 16:15, "And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature", which is the entire human race? This Good News is NOT Good News, if the majority are hell-bound and have zero hope! It is NOT Good News to tell the greater majority of the human race, that Jesus Christ has not died for their sins, and they are going to eternal punishment, and there is nothing that they can do to change this! Nor can God really do anything, because He has already determined those who will be saved!

Jesus' words in this verse gives a FALSE Hope to "every creature", because they CANNOT be saved, as God has placed a barrier, so that they cannot believe, as He has designed before the salvation of the elect only.

This, my friend, is reformed HERESY!

 

[Reformed1689]

The Greek word does not necessarily mean predestined. When you guys can grasp this truth you will understand better

That's exactly what it means and you know it.