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Featured 'You shall call His name JESUS....

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Martin Marprelate, Dec 24, 2021.

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  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    .... for He shall save His people from their sins' (Matthew 1:21). A nice Christmas verse for us to contemplate.

    Note first of all that our Lord will save His people from their sins. We learn from Romans 3:10 that 'There is no-one righteous, not even one.' Therefore there is an urgent need for us to be saved because we are all sinners. Secondly, He will save. He will not offer salvation or make salvation possible; He will save (c.f. Titus 3:5). Thirdly, whom will He save? He will save His people. The Lord Jesus has a people and He, and He alone, will save them (Acts of the Apostles 4:12)..

    So who are these people? We can turn to John 6:38-40 to find out. Here we see that our Lord did not come from heaven to do His own will but that of the Father. This is in line with Psalms 40:6-8 and Philippians 2:6-8. And the will of the Father is two-fold.

    "This is the will of the Father who sent Me. that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." Here is a people given by the Father to the Son, and the Son will lose none of them. When were they given to Him? In eternity, according to His good pleasure (Ephesians 1:4-6; Titus 1:2; Matthew 11:27; Romans 9:14-16).

    "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise Him up at the last day." No-one who trusts in Christ for salvation will trust in vain. No one will be told on that last day, "Salvations not for the likes of you; push off!" Nor will they be told, "I'm sorry, but Christ's blood didn't stretch quite far enough to save you." No! God forbid! The very worst of sinners - pimps, murderers, child-molesters, extortioners, suicide bombers - the Lord Jesus says, "The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37). We can preach the Gospel, plead with sinners, implore them to come to Christ, and assure them that if they will do so, He will not cast them out.

    But the people of verse 39 and those of verse 40 are the same people. When they come to Christ freely (Psalms 110:3), it will be because God has loved them from eternity, with an everlasting love, and has drawn them with lovingkindness, irresistibly to the Son (Jeremiah 31:3; John 6:44).

    'On such love, my soul, still ponder,
    Love so great, so rich, so free;
    Say, while lost in holy wonder,
    "Why, O Lord, such love to me?"
    Hallelujah!
    Grace shall reign eternally.'

    [John Kent (1766-1843]
     
    #1 Martin Marprelate, Dec 24, 2021
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  2. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Before I ever pondered the question of whether the Blood was limited by who it was shed for (monergism) or by who will receive it (synergism), there was the incredible peace of knowing with certainty that the blood of Christ had been shed FOR ME.

    • Jesus … “God saves” … came to save His people from their sin.

    • God chose me and gave me to Jesus … making me (a sinner) one of His people.

    • I am saved from my sin by my Lord and Savior.

    • Long before I ever heard the term “Calvinist” or “Arminian” … that TRUTH meant EVERYTHING to me. It was TRANSFORMATIONAL!
     
    #2 atpollard, Dec 25, 2021
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  3. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    So then Christ didnt come to save everyone, but only His people which are of all sorts and types of sinners.
     
    #3 Brightfame52, Jan 23, 2022
  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You really cannot argue with this without changing or flat out ignoring what scripture actually states.
     
    #4 Reformed1689, Jan 23, 2022
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  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That is true, but it is equally true that He came to save 'whosoever' believes in Him (John 3:16). Therefore we may preach the Gospel with confidence to anybody and everybody and assure them that if they will repent and trust in Christ for salvation, they will be saved.

    I just love the whosoevers of the Bible. :)
     
    #5 Martin Marprelate, Jan 23, 2022
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  6. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Thats inconsistent. He came to save His People from their sins, not whosoever believes. You are conditioning salvation on believing, thats works. The words whosoever merely denotes jew or gentile, He has His People out of each !
     
    #6 Brightfame52, Jan 23, 2022
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    He is hardly doing what you claim.
     
    #7 Reformed1689, Jan 23, 2022
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  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    No for four reasons:
    The Greek construction pas ho seems always to mean 'who(so)ever' inclusively.
    John 6:37 says, '....The one who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out.'
    As I have pointed out before, faith or believing is not a work because of Romans 4:5. 'But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly .........'
    And finally because faith in any case is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8 etc.).
     
    #8 Martin Marprelate, Jan 24, 2022
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  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Faith would only be a work if it was started with man and not God.
     
    #9 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2022
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  10. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Still inconsistent. He shall save His People from their sins.
     
    #10 Brightfame52, Jan 25, 2022
  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    How is it inconsistent?
     
    #11 Reformed1689, Jan 25, 2022
  12. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    "Believing" = "Works" always fascinated me as an argument.
    How exactly do you MAKE yourself believe anything?

    It is a process that I could really use more control over. There are many things that I would rather "believe" and some things that I would prefer "not to believe", but I don't know how to CONTROL the selection process. Wouldn't life be more pleasant if we could believe that everyone is basically good at heart and just needs a little love and a helping hand to fix them? Wouldn't it be great to believe that one day mankind will really solve all of our problems and live in harmony like in the Original Star Trek?

    Sadly, no matter how much I WANT TO BELIEVE these nice things, I cannot help but believe that Thomas Hobbes was closer to getting it right. People cannot be "fixed" ... we require a transformational metamorphosis ... and THAT can only come from God (no matter how much we want it).

    So what exactly does it mean for someone to claim credit for their "beliefs" as a personal work?
    Tell me how you did it, because I REALLY want to know!
     
    #12 atpollard, Jan 25, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, you kidding me right ? Christs atonement is either particular or general, cant be both.
     
    #13 Brightfame52, Jan 25, 2022
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    He did not claim it was both from what I read.
     
    #14 Reformed1689, Jan 25, 2022
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Scroll.

    Excerpt:
    "He bought the whole field, but He particularly bought the treasure that was hidden in that field [Matthew 13:44]. "The Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe." [1 Timothy 4:10]
     
    #15 kyredneck, Jan 25, 2022
  16. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Im not concerned about what you read.
     
    #16 Brightfame52, Jan 26, 2022
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Christs atonement is either particular or general, cant be both. It saves !
     
    #17 Brightfame52, Jan 26, 2022
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Says who.
    A compelling "logical" argument for both has been made and mostly rejected with a "taint so".
    Sorry, but "taint so" is not a logical refutation.

    The logical argument goes something like this:

    If I buy a new Cell Phone, I own both the Phone and the Box that it came in. The Phone is destined for the purpose that I desired it for. The Box is destined for the trash. However, I purchased both and I own both and I will do with both as I will.​

    The SCRIPTURE examples are
    • The man that sold everything to buy the field WANTED the treasure buried in the field (which he purchased), however the whole Field and everything else in it also became his property.
    • Jesus is LORD of both the Living and the Dead ... he died to purchase "all men". (IE. The Potter owns both sets of vessels.)
    The argument hinges on the definition of "atonement".
    Did Christ die to take ownership of all mankind ... some to Save and others to Judge ... but ownership of all of them?
     
    #18 atpollard, Jan 26, 2022
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  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Thats inconsistent to say Christs death was particular and general. For you to even imply that, means you believe that Christs death has non salvaic/redemptive properties about it. Thats not scriptural Jesus is specific that His shed blood was for the remission of sins Matt 26:28
    28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
     
    #19 Brightfame52, Jan 26, 2022
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I bought the Camera ... the man bought the Treasure ... the Potter made the vessels of Honor.

    Affirming the positive, does not negate all other possibilities.
    • Did I buy the box that the camera came in, too?
    • Did the man buy the whole field that came with the Treasure?
    • Does the Potter own the whole lump? Does the Potter not also own the vessels of Wrath?
    I am not denying what Jesus blood accomplished.
    I am echoing the unanswered question "Did it accomplish more than that?"

    Personally, I do not think so. I am a 5 point Calvinist and a strong monergist.
    ... But my OPINION is not scripture and it is not proof.
    So the question is worth asking and seriously answering.
     
    #20 atpollard, Jan 26, 2022
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