Faith and Hope

[DaveXR650]

JD. You come at this from a completely different perspective than I am familiar with with the old testament illustrations and so on. I'm not saying they are wrong, just that it's new to me.

I would say though that if you are saying that the Holy Spirit is not involved in people actually being saved you may be on shaky ground. Of course Calvinists are big on this, but Arminians are too, even if they look at it differently. In my own non-Calvinist background, I can tell you that fundamental Baptists and bible church folks all believe that without action by the Holy Spirit, even if it's explained as only moral conviction, it is still considered absolutely essential for this influence to occur - or one will not be saved.

I do believe that God puts conditions on salvation. So does Jonathan Edwards and I'd be glad to give you the quotes, either on here or by PM. But "unconditional" is meant to show that God is not looking to find merit in people before he saves them, not that there are not conditions.

 

[JD731]

John 16:8-11, ". . . when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ."

Okay, good quotes but where does it say the Holy Ghost coming enables the will? Who enabled the will before the Holy Ghost came? I am telling you that you fellows do not give much thought to your posts before you make them.

If there is a single verse in the scriptures that says men seek God then someone is going to have to reconcile context and at least make an effort to tell the truth.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[37818]

Okay, good quotes but where does it say the Holy Ghost coming enables the will? Who enabled the will before the Holy Ghost came? I am telling you that you fellows do not give much thought to your posts before you make them.

If there is a single verse in the scriptures that says men seek God then someone is going to have to reconcile context and at least make an effort to tell the truth.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1 Peter 1:2, ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience . . . ."

 

[JD731]

JD. You come at this from a completely different perspective than I am familiar with with the old testament illustrations and so on. I'm not saying they are wrong, just that it's new to me.

I would say though that if you are saying that the Holy Spirit is not involved in people actually being saved you may be on shaky ground. Of course Calvinists are big on this, but Arminians are too, even if they look at it differently. In my own non-Calvinist background, I can tell you that fundamental Baptists and bible church folks all believe that without action by the Holy Spirit, even if it's explained as only moral conviction, it is still considered absolutely essential for this influence to occur - or one will not be saved.

I do believe that God puts conditions on salvation. So does Jonathan Edwards and I'd be glad to give you the quotes, either on here or by PM. But "unconditional" is meant to show that God is not looking to find merit in people before he saves them, not that there are not conditions.

I would say though that if you are saying that the Holy Spirit is not involved in people actually being saved you may be on shaky ground.

You should go back and read again what I have said because I have not said the Holy Spirit is not involved in people actually getting saved. I said that the gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer is the definition of salvation.

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

Here the Spirit of God is call the gift of righteousness.

Ro 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Salvation from God is not something that cannot be defined. It is defined by God dwelling in us in the person of the Holy Ghost. God has promised to give eternal life to as many as will repent and believe in Jesus Christ who has made salvation possible by his righteous life and his sacrifice on behalf of all men on the cross and his resurrection from the dead. This is not complicated.

 

[AustinC]

You should go back and read again what I have said because I have not said the Holy Spirit is not involved in people actually getting saved. I said that the gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer is the definition of salvation.

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

Here the Spirit of God is call the gift of righteousness.

Ro 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Salvation from God is not something that cannot be defined. It is defined by God dwelling in us in the person of the Holy Ghost. God has promised to give eternal life to as many as will repent and believe in Jesus Christ who has made salvation possible by his righteous life and his sacrifice on behalf of all men on the cross and his resurrection from the dead. This is not complicated.

JD, it seems that you don't differentiate between salvation and justification. Is that correct?
Your sentences, plucked from Romans, are referring to justification, which is after salvation. Paul gives us a clear teaching regarding salvation in Ephesians 2:1-10.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Now, certainly an effect of God's gracious salvation is God the Spirit indwelling and counseling His children. The cause of our salvation is God choosing to graciously save dead sinners.

 

[DaveXR650]

God has promised to give eternal life to as many as will repent and believe in Jesus Christ who has made salvation possible by his righteous life and his sacrifice on behalf of all men on the cross and his resurrection from the dead. This is not complicated.

That above statement is true. It's also more complicated than you think. The question is HOW do you come to believe. Here's what I have seen on this board:

1. You do nothing because you were saved before time began and belief is simply realizing you have been saved. (Zapping)

2. You are randomly chosen by God and given faith and repentance by the Holy Spirit. (Zapping)

3. The Holy Spirit works in people to enable them to repent and have faith in Christ. Ordinary means are used in this process too like hearing the word or reading the word. But they truly are unable to do this without a direct action of the Holy Spirit. (Zapping)

4. The Holy Spirit works in people to convict them and make them aware of their sinful condition and then it is up to the person to decide to believe and repent. But the Holy Spirit is still essential in order for people to decide to have faith, but they can resist this if they so choose. (Sorta Zapping)

5. Man did not fall so far after Adam's sin that he has lost the ability to repent and believe on his own. No special work of the Holy Spirit is necessary before a man can choose to repent and believe. (No Zapping)

6. The fall of man did not affect anybody personally except Adam so we are responsible to obey and follow God's plan of salvation which he has offered and we have the God given ability to do this. (No Zapping)

7. There is no "fall" of man so you either decide to do God's will or not and you will be judged on that.
(No Zapping)

Most people who post on here are either 2,3 or 4. I personally go with 3. JD, or anyone else, where would you fit in? (Also, feel free to modify to make it closer to where you are coming from.)

(There may be a sub category between 5 and 6 where the Holy Spirit is necessary but has been given to everyone equally already and now you can decide).

 

[JD731]

That above statement is true. It's also more complicated than you think. The question is HOW do you come to believe. Here's what I have seen on this board:

One must not go around ignoring plain statements from the scriptures. Salvation is THE gift of God. It is he who gives it. The gift of God is also the Holy Ghost indwelling a man. Salvation and the Holy Ghost are synonyms. God gives salvation, the Holy Ghost, to every man who will believe the gospel of Christ. A sinner must believe the gospel of Christ before God gives him this gift.

The scriptures tells us that faith comes by hearing the word of God. We are told that it has pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Faith is never set forth as the gift of God.

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

What you guys are trying to teach is that the promise of faith come through the Spirit. This is wrong.

 

[JD731]

JD, it seems that you don't differentiate between salvation and justification. Is that correct?
Your sentences, plucked from Romans, are referring to justification, which is after salvation. Paul gives us a clear teaching regarding salvation in Ephesians 2:1-10.

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Now, certainly an effect of God's gracious salvation is God the Spirit indwelling and counseling His children. The cause of our salvation is God choosing to graciously save dead sinners.

Dead sinners are not how you define them. If those who have the Spirit indwelling their mortal bodies are alive in Christ, and they are, then those who have not the Spirit indwelling them are spiritually dead. You are trying to make spiritual death something that it is not. Spiritual death is not having the Spirit of God indwelling ones mortal body. Physical death is not having the soul dwelling in the body.

Justification by faith was taking place for 4 thousand years before the first person was saved by the blood of Christ. You need to start thinking through these things before you post.

 

[DaveXR650]

I don't know about others on here, but I am totally in agreement with what Galatians 3:14 says and salvation is the gift of God and that the Holy Spirit indwells a man. Just like I am totally in agreement that the means is by hearing the gospel by preaching or reading or by personal witness. These things are absolutely true without any qualifications or modifications needed. But the question still comes up - a group of people hear the word, or read it and yet there are a lot of different reactions. Some believe, others laugh or think it's foolish. Some become angry. Why is this. Well, there are other verses that tell us that our natural tendency is to do this also. So the Holy Spirit must play an active role in calling people and causing them to believe. In Philippians chapter 3 Paul talked about pressing on to make it my own because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Galatians 1:15 Paul says that he was set apart before he was even born. The verses about people being hardened show the danger of trifling with God in this area and the fact that you are not in control of this.

All I'm saying as a Calvinist is that there are plenty of verses that indicate something else is going on in addition to obtaining the right knowledge of the gospel. Jesus himself would do a miracle and some people would believe and others would resolve to kill him. There are modern atheists who study the Bible for years and know way more than you or I and would demolish us in a debate but never get saved. I say it's because God is sovereign in who gets saved and that the Holy Spirit is involved in turning to Christ. What you do is every time you read a verse, if it doesn't say everything about a subject then you are not allowed to look at another verse for more explanation. If the Bible says faith comes by hearing, that does not mean then that the Holy Spirit is not allowed to act on the person hearing just because it didn't explain it in that verse.

 

[AustinC]

Dead sinners are not how you define them. If those who have the Spirit indwelling their mortal bodies are alive in Christ, and they are, then those who have not the Spirit indwelling them are spiritually dead. You are trying to make spiritual death something that it is not. Spiritual death is not having the Spirit of God indwelling ones mortal body. Physical death is not having the soul dwelling in the body.

Justification by faith was taking place for 4 thousand years before the first person was saved by the blood of Christ. You need to start thinking through these things before you post.

Indeed, God has always justified by faith. God has also always saved by grace everyone whom He chooses. Since Adam, people have been spiritually dead in their sins with no spiritual life within them. God, by His grace, has had to give them life. That life, is by God's choosing and by no other means.
Until you acknowledge the Sovereignty of God in choosing His children, you will always stumble over what God is saying and thus misunderstand.

 

[percho]

Here is the reason and the only reason Paul went from unbelief unto belief.

Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

 

[JD731]

I don't know about others on here, but I am totally in agreement with what Galatians 3:14 says and salvation is the gift of God and that the Holy Spirit indwells a man. Just like I am totally in agreement that the means is by hearing the gospel by preaching or reading or by personal witness. These things are absolutely true without any qualifications or modifications needed. But the question still comes up - a group of people hear the word, or read it and yet there are a lot of different reactions. Some believe, others laugh or think it's foolish. Some become angry. Why is this. Well, there are other verses that tell us that our natural tendency is to do this also. So the Holy Spirit must play an active role in calling people and causing them to believe. In Philippians chapter 3 Paul talked about pressing on to make it my own because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Galatians 1:15 Paul says that he was set apart before he was even born. The verses about people being hardened show the danger of trifling with God in this area and the fact that you are not in control of this.

All I'm saying as a Calvinist is that there are plenty of verses that indicate something else is going on in addition to obtaining the right knowledge of the gospel. Jesus himself would do a miracle and some people would believe and others would resolve to kill him. There are modern atheists who study the Bible for years and know way more than you or I and would demolish us in a debate but never get saved. I say it's because God is sovereign in who gets saved and that the Holy Spirit is involved in turning to Christ. What you do is every time you read a verse, if it doesn't say everything about a subject then you are not allowed to look at another verse for more explanation. If the Bible says faith comes by hearing, that does not mean then that the Holy Spirit is not allowed to act on the person hearing just because it didn't explain it in that verse.

You seem to be thinking there is some type of magic involved in salvation. There is not. One must process the information that God gives about himself and his salvation and submit to it. The key is believing the words. You say you believe Ga 3:14 but then question it because everyone who hears does not receive the promise.

When Paul wrote these following words in AD 58 he had already been severely beaten 5 times by the Jews, left for dead at Lystra and had to escape the lynch mob by scaling a wall in a basket.

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Verse 3 says why they will not be saved. They have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. They have not believed in Jesus Christ, who is his righteousness.

Paul says in another letter that he attempts to persuade men to believe and receive God's salvation because he knows the end of a man who dies unsaved.

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to [answer] them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, [it is] to God: or whether we be sober, [it is] for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blame

Calvinism is self righteousness. When it claims God sends people to hell because he has not provided an acceptable sacrifice for them it is a denial of the person and work of Jesus Christ on behalf of the world. God has never told us he will save every sinner but he did say every sinner could be saved by coming to him through Christ.

Calvinism says only those sinners whom God has previously selected to be saved can come to him for salvation. That is not what God says. He says the following;

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Election is not the way, Jesus Christ is. Election is not the truth. Jesus Christ is. Election is not the life. Jesus Christ is.

 

[DaveXR650]

JD. People believe things for a reason. If you, as a non-Calvinist, have in mind that you reject Calvinism because you want to make man fully responsible for his actions and that you want to protect God's reputation from being arbitrarily nasty then I want you to know I'm OK with that. I read enough of the best non-Calvinist argument to know how that works and I was there myself once.

The Calvinist position on some of these issues is not what you think in many cases. Is there a case where a Calvinist preacher says someone who comes to Christ by faith would be rejected because they were not included in the atonement? Do you realize that classic Calvinists like Thomas Watson explain "irresistible grace" ( which he calls "effectual calling") as a person realizing their sinful condition, coming under conviction, and wanting to come to Christ? If by magic you mean the Holy Spirit is involved in this then yup, that's what we mean. It used to be, if you look at writers from the old days, old testament and up through the 1800's, there was a general thought that ALL good things came from God.

You non-Calvinists act like you are protecting God's reputation from evil Calvinist philosophy. Well, I wonder if this modern, weird insistence that I have to be in control and I have to be the one that decides to believe is not so much about protecting God's reputation as it is a reflection on our modern tendency toward self esteem. God is not arbitrarily nasty and man is responsible for his actions. Calvinism does not teach otherwise but you disagree. There's no sense going back and forth forever.

 

[AustinC]

You seem to be thinking there is some type of magic involved in salvation. There is not. One must process the information that God gives about himself and his salvation and submit to it. The key is believing the words. You say you believe Ga 3:14 but then question it because everyone who hears does not receive the promise.

When Paul wrote these following words in AD 58 he had already been severely beaten 5 times by the Jews, left for dead at Lystra and had to escape the lynch mob by scaling a wall in a basket.

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Verse 3 says why they will not be saved. They have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. They have not believed in Jesus Christ, who is his righteousness.

Paul says in another letter that he attempts to persuade men to believe and receive God's salvation because he knows the end of a man who dies unsaved.

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to [answer] them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, [it is] to God: or whether we be sober, [it is] for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blame

Calvinism is self righteousness. When it claims God sends people to hell because he has not provided an acceptable sacrifice for them it is a denial of the person and work of Jesus Christ on behalf of the world. God has never told us he will save every sinner but he did say every sinner could be saved by coming to him through Christ.

Calvinism says only those sinners whom God has previously selected to be saved can come to him for salvation. That is not what God says. He says the following;

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Election is not the way, Jesus Christ is. Election is not the truth. Jesus Christ is. Election is not the life. Jesus Christ is.

1) You proclaim MUST, which therefore eliminates salvation by Grace. You put human effort as the cause, which is backward. God causes, the effect is faith and belief. As long as you state things backward, you will be teaching works salvation.

2) The teaching of election is in the Bible. You are denying what God teaches. Re-read Romans 8 and Romans 9. Also, read Ephesians 1.

 

[JD731]

1) You proclaim MUST, which therefore eliminates salvation by Grace. You put human effort as the cause, which is backward. God causes, the effect is faith and belief. As long as you state things backward, you will be teaching works salvation.

2) The teaching of election is in the Bible. You are denying what God teaches. Re-read Romans 8 and Romans 9. Also, read Ephesians 1.

There is no mystery associated with Romans 8 and 9. The reason for this is because Paul is dealing with Israel and the preparation work of God in the OT in preparing Israel to be born again by faith in Jesus Christ and to enter into his kingdom. There were promises all through their OT history that God was coming to them, that he would die for them, and he would abide in them by the Spirit. All of their ceremonial law and their temple worship was designed to teach them about the salvation that God was preparing for them through the Messiah. The problem you and most other Calvinists have is that you do not believe a single word of the OT. Your eyes are totally blind to the prophetic types and antitypes of the scriptures.

There is a mystery being revealed by God through the Apostle Paul in Ephesians. It is a mystery because there was not a single word written about what God is revealing in this letter in the OT. It is the mystery of Christ and it is the theme of this letter. There is a capsule verse in Eph 3:6 that identifies this mystery and only the very numb will miss it. That verse says the following;

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Now I know you well enough by now to know you will not accept what that verse says. First of all you probably will not recognize the fact that God is forming the body of Christ, beginning with the Jews as recorded in Acts 1-7 when only Jews had the gospel preached to them.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Then because of an addition in Christ, he says this to these gentiles;

13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Joint heirs - The Jews first in verse 11-12 and the gentiles in Verses 14. The Holy Spirit is the down payment or the earnest of our inheritance.

Calvinism does not recognize the bible doctrine of being "in Christ" that is in his body and they do not recognize that we gentiles who believe in Christ have been made partakers with the Jews of their spiritual blessings, which is sonship in Christ, the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So when God says he has chosen us in Christ it means exactly what it says. He chose Christ before the world was and everyone who is in him is chosen of God because we are one with Christ. It is a wonderful plan.

 

[DaveXR650]

The problem you and most other Calvinists have is that you do not believe a single word of the OT

Have you actually read any literature by Calvinists? It's always puzzled me as to why the Puritan theologians rely so heavily on the old testament. To say they didn't believe a word of it is ridiculous.

Calvinism does not recognize the bible doctrine of being "in Christ" that is in his body and they do not recognize that we gentiles who believe in Christ have been made partakers with the Jews of their spiritual blessings, which is sonship in Christ, the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That's completely wrong. Calvinists are heavy into being "in Christ". Listen to Sinclair Ferguson - he defines that as being the definition of being a Christian. Thomas Watson spends a huge amount of time trying to explain our adoption and how it unites us with Christ and by the way - while using mostly old testament references.

 

[AustinC]

There is no mystery associated with Romans 8 and 9. The reason for this is because Paul is dealing with Israel and the preparation work of God in the OT in preparing Israel to be born again by faith in Jesus Christ and to enter into his kingdom. There were promises all through their OT history that God was coming to them, that he would die for them, and he would abide in them by the Spirit. All of their ceremonial law and their temple worship was designed to teach them about the salvation that God was preparing for them through the Messiah. The problem you and most other Calvinists have is that you do not believe a single word of the OT. Your eyes are totally blind to the prophetic types and antitypes of the scriptures.

There is a mystery being revealed by God through the Apostle Paul in Ephesians. It is a mystery because there was not a single word written about what God is revealing in this letter in the OT. It is the mystery of Christ and it is the theme of this letter. There is a capsule verse in Eph 3:6 that identifies this mystery and only the very numb will miss it. That verse says the following;

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Now I know you well enough by now to know you will not accept what that verse says. First of all you probably will not recognize the fact that God is forming the body of Christ, beginning with the Jews as recorded in Acts 1-7 when only Jews had the gospel preached to them.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Then because of an addition in Christ, he says this to these gentiles;

13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Joint heirs - The Jews first in verse 11-12 and the gentiles in Verses 14. The Holy Spirit is the down payment or the earnest of our inheritance.

Calvinism does not recognize the bible doctrine of being "in Christ" that is in his body and they do not recognize that we gentiles who believe in Christ have been made partakers with the Jews of their spiritual blessings, which is sonship in Christ, the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So when God says he has chosen us in Christ it means exactly what it says. He chose Christ before the world was and everyone who is in him is chosen of God because we are one with Christ. It is a wonderful plan.

Sir, Paul is addressing the mixed church at Rome where both Gentile and Jew worship together. He is painstakingly showing that all who are in Christ (before and after the cross) are justified by faith alone. He is showing that God has always elected and chosen to have mercy upon whom he chooses to have mercy.
At this point you are scrambling for a loophole to try explain away what God is clearly telling you, namely that God elected each and every person who believes.

 

[Van]

Obtaining approval by faith was occurring within Adam's family (Abel) and has been ongoing ever since. The path to being made righteous differed, as the OT Saints had to wait to be made perfect until Christ died, but the resulting eternal life with Christ is the same outcome.

 

[AustinC]

Obtaining approval by faith was occurring within Adam's family (Abel) and has been ongoing ever since. The path to being made righteous differed, as the OT Saints had to wait to be made perfect until Christ died, but the resulting eternal life with Christ is the same outcome.

No human is approved by their own effort to generate faith. That kind of effort is as filthy rags.
Only God is holy and only the faith given by God can be holy and counted as righteousness. Any attempt to argue differently is an attempt to glorify humans and remove glory from God alone.

 

[JD731]

Sir, Paul is addressing the mixed church at Rome where both Gentile and Jew worship together. He is painstakingly showing that all who are in Christ (before and after the cross) are justified by faith alone. He is showing that God has always elected and chosen to have mercy upon whom he chooses to have mercy.
At this point you are scrambling for a loophole to try explain away what God is clearly telling you, namely that God elected each and every person who believes.

Do you folks ever read what you have written? You have just spouted off silliness. While claiming that God justifies by faith you then argue against justification by faith by saying that no one has faith if God did not choose them and elect them. Good grief. Having a bible has done you absolutely zero good because you believe none of it.