Faith and Hope

[AustinC]

Do you folks ever read what you have written? You have just spouted off silliness. While claiming that God justifies by faith you then argue against justification by faith by saying that no one has faith if God did not choose them and elect them. Good grief. Having a bible has done you absolutely zero good because you believe none of it.

The fact that you don't actually understand what I said is exposed by your response.
What you claim I said and what I actually said are completely different things. Can you re-read my post and actually grasp why your statement is wrong?
I, and others who agree with me, have a Bible and fully believe it. We don't, however, believe you.

 

[JD731]

Have you actually read any literature by Calvinists? It's always puzzled me as to why the Puritan theologians rely so heavily on the old testament. To say they didn't believe a word of it is ridiculous.


That's completely wrong. Calvinists are heavy into being "in Christ". Listen to Sinclair Ferguson - he defines that as being the definition of being a Christian. Thomas Watson spends a huge amount of time trying to explain our adoption and how it unites us with Christ and by the way - while using mostly old testament references.

Do you agree with this following statement made by AustinC?

No human is approved by their own effort to generate faith. That kind of effort is as filthy rags.
Only God is holy and only the faith given by God can be holy and counted as righteousness. Any attempt to argue differently is an attempt to glorify humans and remove glory from God alone

.

 

[DaveXR650]

JD. I'm not sure what he's saying. If he is referring to the verse that says all our righteousness is as filthy rags the I would say yes. What is your point?

 

[kyredneck]

The access to God's grace is by faith.

Egad. Just look at the 'grace' He showered upon us BEFORE we even knew about it:

6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5

'Our faith', let alone 'our faith alone', had zilch to do our eternal justification from eternity.

 

[percho]

Have faith of God.

What is the faith of God? -----------IMHO

What God?

John 1:1,2,14 YLT In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; this one was in the beginning with God; And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth. ---------- IMHO thus, God the Father and the Son of the living God

How did the Word become flesh? IMHO conceived of a virgin woman out of Spirit and brought forth of that virgin woman, Holy. --- And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
God manifested in flesh, a little lower than the angels because of the suffering of the death.

That God.

What did God the Father, believe, have faith of, concerning the Son of God? ------------IMHO That the Son of God, born of woman, would be obedient unto death, that is shed his blood wherein was the life of him, see Lev 17:11 even the death of the cross.

IMHO that is the faith of God.

Luke 22:40-44 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation. And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Heb 5:7,8 YLT who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

The obedience of what? IMHO ----- Obedience of faith

If Jesus had not become obedient unto death even the death of the cross would there have been a resurrection? Would there be a gospel of the kingdom of God?

Rom 3:23-27 YLT for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God -- being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God -- for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus. Where then is the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith:

IMHO God, the Father did that because of the faith he had in the Son of God becoming obedient in the shedding forth of his blood, dying for our sins.

 

[JD731]

Egad. Just look at the 'grace' He showered upon us BEFORE we even knew about it:

6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5

'Our faith', let alone 'our faith alone', had zilch to do our eternal justification from eternity.

Good grief. This Calvinism is far worse than I ever imagined. It seems to me that someone would try to help you unless this is what all Calvinists believes.

 

[JD731]

JD. I'm not sure what he's saying. If he is referring to the verse that says all our righteousness is as filthy rags the I would say yes. What is your point?

Well we have conversed for a while now and you say you believe Ga 3:14 and statements from the scriptures that defines salvation as receiving the promise of the Spirit of God into our mortal bodies by faith yet I have not seen you defend that position against radicals like AustinC. I doubt he and some others posting here would say they believe that.

 

[DaveXR650]

JD. I'm half afraid to agree with a statement like above on Galations 3:14 because the language of "salvation as receiving the promise of the Spirit of God into our mortal bodies by faith" is too vague. What I mean is that Calvinists put a high priority on defining being a Christian as being "in Christ". "If any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creature". "For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, and be found IN HIM..." Jonathan Edwards in defining "faith" said many things as he always did, but one thing he said is that faith is that thing that UNITES US to Christ. Being in Christ is a central part of Calvinism. Now I have been on this board for 3 months and the most nasty attacks against me have been from Calvinists. But in all fairness, I don't think the Calvinists will be against my belief that being found "in Christ" is a central point to being a Christian. Let's see.

 

[Van]

No human is approved by their own effort to generate faith. That kind of effort is as filthy rags.
Only God is holy and only the faith given by God can be holy and counted as righteousness. Any attempt to argue differently is an attempt to glorify humans and remove glory from God alone.

No one said or suggest humans are approved by their own effort. Romans 9:16
Faith given by God would be holy and righteous, so no need to credit it as righteousness. Thus the gift of faith is unbiblical.
To believe the word of God is to glorify God, to deny the very word of God is not to glorify God. God credits our faith for our benefit. Full Stop.

 

[AustinC]

Good grief. This Calvinism is far worse than I ever imagined. It seems to me that someone would try to help you unless this is what all Calvinists believes.

LOL, JD, what you have is persons observing God’s word and you call the observation of God's word..."Calvinism", to which you say "good grief." Observing what God says gets your reaction of "this Calvinism is far worse than I ever imagined."
LOL, what you do is place all these clear observations of scripture onto a boogeyman, of your own imagination, that you call Calvinism, as a means of ignoring God's Word. You have created a crutch so that your false beliefs aren't destroyed by God's word.

 

[DaveXR650]

JD. You do bring up a good point in that there is a variation among Calvinists.

'Our faith', let alone 'our faith alone', had zilch to do our eternal justification from eternity.

For instance I totally disagree with the above statement. You are not justified from eternity.

 

[kyredneck]

Good grief. This Calvinism is far worse than I ever imagined. It seems to me that someone would try to help you unless this is what all Calvinists believes.

I'm not a Calvinist.

For instance I totally disagree with the above statement. You are not justified from eternity.

You hold to anti-scriptural 'justified by faith alone' and you can't produce even one tiny itsy bitsy passage that supports that unbiblical mantra. At the very least the passages I cited in post #44 show beyond a doubt justification apart from faith.

 

[DaveXR650]

Sorry Kyredneck. I didn't mean to misrepresent your beliefs. JD had made his comment and in trying to answer him I looked above and there was your quote on the eternal justification. I do apologize for that.

 

[DaveXR650]

Just an FYI, justification by faith alone is totally scriptural because every time you see a verse that says to "believe" and you will be saved you are talking about justification by faith alone. "Alone" is emphasized by Calvinists to differentiate from Catholics who in our opinion bring in elements of sanctification to justification and confuse the whole works. But in all fairness to the Catholics we also say (and I think it was Luther who said it) that while justification is by faith alone faith is never found alone but will without fail be followed by works.

Also, in Ephesians 2:8-9 where you have "through faith", whether you believe the faith is a gift or your own, it is still the only thing mentioned besides grace so it is not far fetched to say faith occupies a unique place in salvation so we say it's faith alone. Also, in Romans 4:5 faith is contrasted to works and tied in to righteousness where nothing else is. It is alone.

 

[percho]

'If ye love me, my commands keep, and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you -- to the age; the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him, and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you. John 14:15-17

And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and (to belief, because of the dative) belief of the truth (genitive), 2 Thes 2:13 YLT

Now a little while after saying the above Jesus said the following, 'But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;" John 16:7 YLT

This was said by Jesus on the night portion of the fourteenth day of Nissan and before the beginning of the fifteenth day. Where would Jesus be going away on the fourteenth day? Going away in the pouring out of his soul unto death? The soul of the flesh being in the blood Lev 17:11? Dying for the sake of our sins 1 Cor. 15:3 The Father making the Son, sin for us 2 Cor. 5:21

If I may not go away - the spirit of truth will not come.

What did you hear, whereby you received the Spirit ? While we were yet sinners Christ died, shed his blood, for us Rom 5:8

Gal 3:14 YLT that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. --- If I may not go away - the spirit of truth will not come. Jesus dying, going away for three days and three nights is, the faith, you believe having received the Spirit of Truth. You are, of the faith, of the Abraham, being in Christ.

IMHO

 

[JD731]

I'm not a Calvinist.

You sure had me fooled.

You hold to anti-scriptural 'justified by faith alone' and you can't produce even one tiny itsy bitsy passage that supports that unbiblical mantra. At the very least the passages I cited in post #44 show beyond a doubt justification apart from faith.

Can anybody read and follow a logical presentation of facts anymore. Romans 3 is the most comprehensive chapter on justification by faith in the scriptures. Romans 4 gives three illustrations of the truth of justification by faith that was presented in Romans 3. Abraham is the first illustration. He illustrates those who were justified by faith before the law of God was written. David is the second illustration. He represents justification by faith of those who were under the law of God. Finally, the believers in the gospel of Christ, which is after the law, is the final example. So, it does not matter when you lived, if you are justified by God, the Judge of all the earth, whether it is before the law, during the law, or after the law, God justifies those who believes what he says to them.

Here we are since the law:

23 Now it was not written for his (Abraham) sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him;
24 But for us (since the cross) also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Believing in Jesus Christ is a good thing but if one denies everything God the Father says about him then your faith in him is vain and worthless. There is no magic in the name of Jesus Christ. We must process the information we are given and believe it.

Just so you know that God the Father raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

Ga 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

All three members of the Godhead are involved in different ways in our salvation.

It is the Spirit who indwells us and gives us life when we believe the gospel.

Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

It is the Father always who justifies.

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

It is Jesus Christ who has died for us.

Ro 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The point here is that there is nothing that can condemn us after we have been justified by God and given the Spirit of Christ.

Maybe this will help you see more clearly.

 

[kyredneck]

justification by faith alone is totally scriptural

No, it's not. It's anti-scriptural:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

"Alone" is emphasized by Calvinists to differentiate from Catholics

"Alone" is not there in the scripture, 'Calvinists' have added it to the gospel. Paul's contention with the works system of the Jew's religion was the same as the Reformers struggle with Catholicism, and not once did he emphasize 'faith alone', which has morphed into the horrendous hardline restrictivism that all who have not heard the gospel will burn in hell, babies included, and just as bad there has evolved an irrational aversion to any mention of works as an element of our justification which is clearly taught in the scriptures. You 'faith aloners' have 'gone to seed' with justification by faith.

 

[DaveXR650]

We can do this forever. James 2 has been explained numerous times.

And like I explained above, in the Bible when talking about justification faith is found alone all the time with no exceptions and it is frequently singled out in case we didn't get it as being opposed to works.

Now, like I said above, there is the fact that saving faith that results in justification will without fail be followed by works, pursuit of holiness, love for God and Christ and your neighbor. So if you read Calvinist literature from the Puritans you will find references to works being necessary for salvation. What they mean by salvation is the whole process, from justification, followed by sanctification and finally glorification. I don't believe that you have faith and then are OK no matter what with no further concern on your part. That is easy believism. Neither do I believe that anything but faith is required on our part for justification. And the faith is only possible because of the work of the Spirit.

You go on and on and sound sometimes like a Pelagian and sometimes like a Calvinist. I can't figure out what you believe.

 

[JD731]

Jas 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Jas 3:13 Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

One thing is sure. God does not need to see works to know a man has faith, but he is the only one who can say this. The scriptures say that man looketh on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. So James is dealing with justification in the sight of other men. Men must look at the works of men to determine the sincerity of their faith.

Another thing about James. He is not writing this letter to gentiles. If there are things in the letter than can apply to gentiles then it is because it is a universal truth. Here is who he says he is writing his letter to.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Most people ignores this plain fact. James was the first of the NT epistles. He is not dealing with church truths. He wrote the letter in AD 45, 4 years before Paul wrote his first epistle to the gentiles. He is dealing with national truths and responsibilities. Judah had a national presence and identity for the first 40 years of the Christian era. There were certain physical promises to them that they could claim, unlike the gentiles who only were made partakers of the spiritual blessings of Israel.

An example of this is found in James 5.

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

This is an unconditional promise that cannot fail.

Paul, OTOH, had probably read the book of James and he had this to say about some of his sick companions.

25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

You notice that Paul did not apply the teaching of James to these gentiles.

19 Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

This is the great apostle Paul who had the apostolic gifts to heal.

This is instruction to Timothy.

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.

When the words in scriptures are not believed it opens the door to all kinds of weird beliefs and practices. How many churches do I know of over the years who have applied the James 5 promise only to have it fail to heal? It makes God appear to not be faithful to his word.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

 

[AustinC]

We can do this forever. James 2 has been explained numerous times.

And like I explained above, in the Bible when talking about justification faith is found alone all the time with no exceptions and it is frequently singled out in case we didn't get it as being opposed to works.

Now, like I said above, there is the fact that saving faith that results in justification will without fail be followed by works, pursuit of holiness, love for God and Christ and your neighbor. So if you read Calvinist literature from the Puritans you will find references to works being necessary for salvation. What they mean by salvation is the whole process, from justification, followed by sanctification and finally glorification. I don't believe that you have faith and then are OK no matter what with no further concern on your part. That is easy believism. Neither do I believe that anything but faith is required on our part for justification. And the faith is only possible because of the work of the Spirit.

You go on and on and sound sometimes like a Pelagian and sometimes like a Calvinist. I can't figure out what you believe.

Neither could I. I went round and round, attempting to figure out his position, but to no avail.
He seems to have his own twist on Roman Catholic justification by faith plus works, but when asked he gets mad and ultimately I believe he put me on ignore.