Faith and Hope

[AustinC]

Jesus parable that shows justification by faith alone:
Luke 18:9-14

Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don’t cheat, I don’t sin, and I don’t commit adultery. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

[DaveXR650]

One thing is sure. God does not need to see works to know a man has faith, but he is the only one who can say this. The scriptures say that man looketh on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart. So James is dealing with justification in the sight of other men. Men must look at the works of men to determine the sincerity of their faith.

That's a good explanation of James 2, in my opinion.

 

[kyredneck]

James 2 has been explained numerous times.

Yea, right here, straight from the scriptures, no 'explanation' required.:

"If you're referring to the works that James was talking about in his epistle:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

...are the same works we're all going to be judged by.

The just:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

The unjust:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith."

...and if you're sticking with the namby-pamby 'explanation' that James was referring to a justification before men, this justification is BEFORE CHRIST, NOT MEN.

 

[DaveXR650]

...and if you're sticking with the namby-pamby 'explanation' that James was referring to a justification before men, this justification is BEFORE CHRIST, NOT MEN.

I am sticking with it. I don't know much about the interpretation of Matthew 25 so I can't say much. I know some commentary writers like G. Campbell Morgan say it refers to nations being judged when Christ sets up the Kingdom. I honestly don't know. Morgan was not a Calvinist though.

If the passage is about being justified by works do you find it strange that the one's referred to as "the righteous" in verses 37,38,39 seemed to be unaware of what they had done? I do. And I think it was because as people who had been justified by faith alone as explained to you repeatedly, and as a result having a truly changed set of affections and way of life because they had been born again, they were doing those works without an attitude of "I'm doing a good thing here so I can be justified". They did those things true, but not to obtain justification. They did them because they were justified.

 

[JD731]

Yea, right here, straight from the scriptures, no 'explanation' required.:

"If you're referring to the works that James was talking about in his epistle:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

...are the same works we're all going to be judged by.

The just:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

The unjust:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

James has nothing to do with Matthew 25. I am going to quote verses in Matt 25 and I will highlight and underline some verses that NOBODY believes except those men who have trained themselves to believe the words of scriptures and to establish their understanding based on those words. Here goes;

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

This is King Jesus after he comes to establish his kingdom and to judge his subjects, who is worthy to enter into it. Jesus Christ is not prosecuting his office as King now. He is seated on the right hand of the Father prosecuting his office as High Priest and making intercession for the saints.How do I know that and when will he come as King? I am told it plainly- here.

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The nations are under this judgement on how they treated the kinsmen of the Lord Jesus Christ during the great tribulation, who was an Israelite. Following is what God said about the people he would raise up through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Abrahamic covenant.

Ge 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Peter referred to this in his sermon in Acts 3, some of which I have already quoted. Read it here.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Now KyRedneck, I would not suggest you feel alone because you are not the only person who reaches out to bible passages without any regard to context and you are surely not the only person who refuses to believe the words of scripture. This is not a good consolation but it is all we have now.

 

[kyredneck]

do you find it strange that the one's referred to as "the righteous" in verses 37,38,39 seemed to be unaware of what they had done? I do.

NO! It's NOT strange at all! Perfectly normal for the circumcised heart with the law written upon it (read regenerate). Take note:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts* one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

Doing good, loving your neighbor comes naturally to His children.

* I'm convinced His children are given credit for just having the 'want to' do good, for the imagination of their hearts.

 

[DaveXR650]

NO! It's NOT strange all! Perfectly normal for the circumcised heart with the law written upon it (read regenerate). Take note:

Agreed! And I think that a regenerated person absolutely will live a new kind of life and good works, kindness to others, trying to eliminate sin in their lives, loving God and their fellow man - all these things are inevitable and essential to their salvation. And, it is right to examine your life and if you don't find these things you should question your salvation. This does not conflict with justification by faith alone, or an order of salvation that starts with regeneration and calls faith a gift. It does not mean that works play any role in your justification. The thief on the cross is just as justified as the guy who was a missionary for 40 years. What it does mean is that being justified and given new life in Christ means something - so those of us who live on for a time after being saved will for sure have a changed life. Your interest in doing good works for God is good as long as you are not thinking it will earn salvation or produce merit toward your salvation.

 

[kyredneck]

This does not conflict with justification by faith alone

You're in conflict with scripture:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

There is no such thing as justification by faith alone.

 

[DaveXR650]

You're in conflict with scripture:

That's quite possible. I'm no expert. But I think the fact that Lutheran, Presbyterian, Calvinistic Baptist and Puritan theology all teach this to me anyway appears to be a "clue" that maybe there is something to it. Regular Baptists and fundamental Baptists and most bible churches also teach this even though many of them don't have a systematic theology. Justification by faith alone is not only disagreed with but cursed by Roman Catholics. You and I both are just laymen but that might be something to consider also. Don't be afraid to look at who is saying what and why they are saying it. I have explained the Puritan take on the necessity of a holy life and good works but I would warn you to be very careful of mixing in works to your justification. I know some really nice Catholics who do this and I hope they are saved but I really don't know how wrong you can be.

 

[JD731]

That's a good explanation of James 2, in my opinion.

Dave, I have enjoyed our conversation here. You have been gracious and reasonable and I appreciate that. I think though that you have some very blind spots in your theological concepts. You don't seem to understand how the entire scriptures works under the providence of God to renew man to the perfect model by recreating them into the image of his own Son, Jesus Christ, and doing it by Jesus Christ. It would help you to listen to a teacher of the dispensational framework and I have a sermon to recommend to you from a Calvinist, but is an excellent teacher when he is not trying push the idea that God is only interested in saving his four and no more.

I looked this sermon up and read it this morning. I recommend it.

Introduction to Ephesians - Jan 1 1978
www.gty.org

 

[kyredneck]

I think the fact that Lutheran, Presbyterian, Calvinistic Baptist and Puritan theology all teach this to me anyway appears to be a "clue" that maybe there is something to it.

It's called herd mentality, but not everyone is a conformist, there's still a few Bereans around.

 

[DaveXR650]

JD. Thanks for the kind words. And I probably do have a lot of theological blind spots. I hope no one on here ever takes what I say as any more than a guy posting on a "Christian Debate Forum". I like to see where other folks are coming from and I like the recommendations for books, sermons and so on.

I have not thought as much about the dispensation/end times issues for the last 15 years or so. Back in the 70's it was THE issue of course. In fact, the 1972 movie "A Thief in the Night" scared the snot out of me. I do like MacArthur and when he finally retires I don't see any replacement for him. I have been listening to him for years. I come from a Baptist and bible church background and was an honest to goodness independent fundamental Baptist for years. (I even had my own subscription to "Sword of the Lord".) So I am very familiar with the dispensational framework. I'm not against it either. I know the Reformed Baptists largely reject it but I am so weak on my understanding of Calvinist end time views and covenant theology for that matter that I try to stay out of that specific area when you guys go in that direction.

 

[AustinC]

It's called herd mentality, but not everyone is a conformist, there's still a few Bereans around.

As opposed to rogue mentality which is where cults find their home. These folks are not Bereans because these folks reject the teaching of Paul rather than receive it and ask questions. These folks are more like rogue Pharisees.

 

[DaveXR650]

Not everyone is a conformist. There's still a few Bereans around.

That's good, but you and me are at a level where we can benefit from a framework that you get from a system. You don't have to agree with all of it but it will help you discover easy and quick answers to things which might cause you to go off track by yourself. I'm not a Presbyterian but it's easy for instance to look at the WCF as a reference when you hear someone say something that sounds strange to you. You know they are not going to be that weird.

 

[JD731]

JD. Thanks for the kind words. And I probably do have a lot of theological blind spots. I hope no one on here ever takes what I say as any more than a guy posting on a "Christian Debate Forum". I like to see where other folks are coming from and I like the recommendations for books, sermons and so on.

I have not thought as much about the dispensation/end times issues for the last 15 years or so. Back in the 70's it was THE issue of course. In fact, the 1972 movie "A Thief in the Night" scared the snot out of me. I do like MacArthur and when he finally retires I don't see any replacement for him. I have been listening to him for years. I come from a Baptist and bible church background and was an honest to goodness independent fundamental Baptist for years. (I even had my own subscription to "Sword of the Lord".) So I am very familiar with the dispensational framework. I'm not against it either. I know the Reformed Baptists largely reject it but I am so weak on my understanding of Calvinist end time views and covenant theology for that matter that I try to stay out of that specific area when you guys go in that direction.

So, I should have guessed you did not begin your pilgrimage as a Calvinist. I have never heard the testimony of anyone who has. This fact alone should be sufficient to cause you angst. There is a problem with an evangelical movement that relies on someone else to get their members saved.

I am not sure that JM would preach the same sermon now because the things he said about Israel having the capability to reject God's salvation conflicts with Calvinism's irresistible grace and election to salvation. Who could reject God's salvation if these two things were true? I have listened to him a few times over the years and it seems to me he has progressively become more staunch in his Calvinism and I believe it might be because of the crowd he wants to be accepted by. (someone said he took Baptist from the name of his church soon after he became pastor - I do not know if that is true)

It has been my experience in speaking with Calvinists over the years that their eschatological system is figuring out which words in the scriptures they are not going to believe. You saw AustinC declare that a plain application of Romans 11:1-2 was figurative language earlier in this thread and it was not to be taken seriously. Different groups choose to reject different words and so some hold to amil position and others to post mil position and still others to pan mil (all things will pan out in the end) while none holds to a dispensational position because this requires the reader to believe the words he reads.

Having said all that it still remains that MacAurthur's sermon would be a great resource for someone who would like to have some foundational truths concerning his dispensationalism from Ephesians. Let me say that he is not attempting to teach on the subject of dispensational truth in this sermon but this is the platform he builds on.

 

[JD731]

It's called herd mentality, but not everyone is a conformist, there's still a few Bereans around.

I used to travel into Floyd County and other parts of Eastern Kentucky on a regular basis and during these years I met and spoke often with Donna and others who were Primitive Baptists who worked at the plumbing store that I called on there. They were so pleasant and I always looked forward to speaking with them. I learned that Primitive Baptists differed greatly in their teaching from church to church. The one thing they did have in common, maybe the only thing, is they were all Reformed Baptists.(Primitive Baptists are as scarce as hen's teeth in a several mile radius of where I live in KY)

So, you may say you are not Calvinist but there would not be a Primitive Baptist without the Protestant Reformation, all of whom were Catholics and Calvinists.

 

[AustinC]

So, I should have guessed you did not begin your pilgrimage as a Calvinist. I have never heard the testimony of anyone who has. This fact alone should be sufficient to cause you angst.

I have no angst.
What does cause me angst is that the Great Awakening was a movement of God through "Calvinist" teaching and you seem unaware.
Paul expressed his joy that Christ be preached, even when those preaching were in error. What I observe and thus in angst is that the vast majority of "Christians" in the US are so terribly ignorant of what the Bible actually says. Their pastors are theological weaklings that preach a skewed picture of Christ and it leads to much falling away or to an arrogant belief that the congregants are saved by virtue of an incantation prayer that they recited as though it were magic.
This gives me angst because the people walk in ignorance.
Yet, if people will read their Bible, they will begin to question the presumptions of their ignorant pastors and begin to grasp the Sovereignty of God. The fact that so many Christians remain infants and feed their whole life on milk gives me angst. But the means by which God chose them does not give me angst at all.

 

[DaveXR650]

So, I should have guessed you did not begin your pilgrimage as a Calvinist.

That's true. But honestly, I have not noticed among Reformed Baptists a lack of evangelism on a personal level or of missionary support. We make our own converts as much as my old Baptist church did. We make fewer false or temporary converts for sure. Also, a lot of these people have so many kids that you could say we really do make our own converts. I don't know about Presbyterians though. As for the consistency and logic of the theology - it's true that that has never been my primary interest. I am a Calvinist because I love the Puritans and their writings, not because the theological debate has won me over. But I have noticed that when it comes to theological debate, the staunch Calvinists completely mop up the floor with the non-Calvinists, both on this forum and in the books you read. But for me, I just noticed that the serious writings about sin and salvation were almost all being done by Calvinists.

 

[kyredneck]

So, you may say you are not Calvinist but there would not be a Primitive Baptist without the Protestant Reformation, all of whom were Catholics and Calvinists.

Primitive Baptist Article Details | Ten Reasons Why PBs are not Calvinists (primitivebaptistsermons.org)

I pretty much agree with the article except for the first note - not sure how far back their roots go, but do believe the PBs can trace back to the Old Particular Baptists before Fuller.

 

[JD731]

I have no angst.
What does cause me angst is that the Great Awakening was a movement of God through "Calvinist" teaching and you seem unaware.
Paul expressed his joy that Christ be preached, even when those preaching were in error. What I observe and thus in angst is that the vast majority of "Christians" in the US are so terribly ignorant of what the Bible actually says. Their pastors are theological weaklings that preach a skewed picture of Christ and it leads to much falling away or to an arrogant belief that the congregants are saved by virtue of an incantation prayer that they recited as though it were magic.
This gives me angst because the people walk in ignorance.
Yet, if people will read their Bible, they will begin to question the presumptions of their ignorant pastors and begin to grasp the Sovereignty of God. The fact that so many Christians remain infants and feed their whole life on milk gives me angst. But the means by which God chose them does not give me angst at all.

You deny that sinners are saved by faith.

God is sovereign only when he wants to be, which is not often. He rules by providence. Would somebody look around at things that are going on in the world and say God is practicing his sovereignty over the world and be serious. Anyone who would do such a thing is a person who insults God by teaching this is the best he can do.The whole world is about to fly apart now and you think God is in charge of the melee? Good grief. I don't think you Calvinists even think about what your claims are.

I am going to quote a parable that Jesus Christ gave shortly before his departure from earth to heaven and one that covers this entire age from the resurrection to the Day of the Lord. You will not believe the first word of it and it will be vanity to quote it to you but it will prove my point.

Matt 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
__________________________

Sovereignty? They rejected his kingship. Hello!!! This sovereignty doctrine has to get in line of one of the top 5 silliest doctrines of Calvinism.

What does this verse say in the Psalms and is it ever modified anywhere in scripture?

Ps 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.