Jesus did share in our infirmity (He took upon Himself what it is to be man).
You have to keep in mind that Christ's death did not save you.
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The Biblical Atonement (continued 3)
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You have to keep in mind that Christ's death did not save you.
Having come late to the abundant threads on this topic, please be careful of not just your claims but what you assume is correct about others.
It has been shown by Scriptures that God could not pour out His wrath upon the Son. That to do so not only violates the unity of the trinity, but causes God to become unjust and therefore unholy by rejecting the sacrifice without cause.
Either the Christ was pure, innocent, and God in the flesh, or He became polluted and disqualified as the redeemer.
What can you show by Scriptures that has not already been shared?
It provided they very basis to allow the father to now fully justify me though!
biblical option, in that Jesus remained undefiled and blameless, and yet also became very sin offering for our sales, so the Father treated Jesus as if was now that sin!
Jesus got our sins imputed unto Himself, and as a result experienced all that lost sinners will of the wrath and judgement of God for their sins, and we thus are able to now receive His righteousness for our justification!
Prove your thinking by using Scriptures.
Certainly according to Colossians 2, God does, but how did such be accomplished?
(Not by Wrath).
Does God have a wrath needing propitiation?
Does not the Scripture state that AFTER death is the Judgement?
When did God change that sequence?
Also, where do Scriptures state:
“Jesus got our sins imputed unto Himself, and as a result experienced all that lost sinners will of the wrath and judgement of God for their sins, and we thus are able to now receive His righteousness for our justification!”
In the OT when did God demonstrate wrath at the yearly atonement?
Only if the blood and/or the High priest was impure.
Did Christ become impure? No. The Scriptures state that not only is He the great High Priest, but that He remained “without sin.”
@JesusFan
Not knowing how skilled you are in the Scriptures may hinder our conversation.
Please do not take any post I make as if it is being critical of you, but take it as encouraging you to search the Scriptures.
But, we do so desire you to be thoroughly rooted (an agricultural term) and grounded (an architectural term) in the Scriptures so you may spread the Word and water effectively and that you build up those in Christ as a fellow laborer.
Not knowing how skilled you are in the Scriptures may hinder our conversation.
Please do not take any post I make as if it is being critical of you, but take it as encouraging you to search the Scriptures.
But, we do so desire you to be thoroughly rooted (an agricultural term) and grounded (an architectural term) in the Scriptures so you may spread the Word and water effectively and that you build up those in Christ as a fellow laborer.
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Yes, His death reconciled man to God.
The Father judged all of the redeemed and their sins right on that Cross! he was their sin bearer
Jesus became for us our sin bearer, and to God the father while upon that Cross was treated as if he had actually sinned, even while still blameless and holy!
Think that the basis of the reformation was and is psa though
Then that makes God unrighteous.
For how then does one member of the trinity suffer by the efforts of other members of the trinity if that member is blameless and holy?
In what manner does the trinity remain the trinity if one member is brutalized?
These philosophical questions the PSA theory cannot satisfactorily answer. But it is more then philosophy.
It is Scriptures that do not present at any point such wrath being placed by the Father upon the Son.
Rather, just the opposite.
The Scriptures state the Father was pleased, that the Father was satisfied, that the Father was propitiated by the work of the crucifixion.
Here is what the Scriptures state took place at the crucifixion:
11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption....
14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God! 15Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.....
23So it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God. 25Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (Hebrews 9)
14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, purify our consciences from works of death, so that we may serve the living God! 15Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.....
23So it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God. 25Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself. (Hebrews 9)
What is presented in the Scriptures is that "Christ died according to the Scriptures" (Paul).
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Certainly. The reformation was all about reforming the RCC and the Church of England (by the puritans)
The Separatists, realizing it was all awash in error, rightfully separated and were highly persecuted as a result of their hold to the Scriptures.
Are you stating here that Jesus under Psa suffered"Cosmic child abuse, is a pagan concept>"
The very bedrock of the Reformation was Pauline Justification, based upon Psa!
So you say, but I have shown you three places where the word of God very clearly indicates the Doctrine of Penal Substitution (not necessarily your caricature of it), and you have almost nothing to say, save flatly to deny the plainest of plain words of Scripture in Isaiah 53:10.
But does it not trouble you that you are walking in the footsteps of Faustus Socinius, Friedrich Schliermacher (the 'father of liberalism'), Horace Bushnell, C.H. Dodd and all the other ignoble company of liberals? That is where your adopted tradition is taking you, and I hope it worries you.
I have said several times here that unless Christ has taken my sins upon Himself and paid the penalty for them Himself in full, then I am still in my sins and must expect to pay for them myself. I was delighted to find just recently that I have a supporter in the form of the great John Owen: 'If He fulfilled not justice, I must; if He underwent not wrath, I must, to eternity' ['Death of Death in the Death of Christ']
I still have some more work to do before I can give myself to this issue as I would wish, but I will return to it as I have time and start a new thread.
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Exactly.
I think we can move on from Penal Substitution Theory. It is obvious that the Theory is not actually contained in the text of Scripture and therefore cannot stand the text of Scripture itself, although a large minority sect of Christianity believe Scripture teaches the Theory.
What may be of more benefit here is to talk about what is actually written in God's Word.
The Word became flesh and shared in our infirmity. Christ bore our sins in His body, became a curse for us, and died for our sins. Men considered Him afflicted and striken by God, but His suffering was for our well-being. He died at the hands of the wicked which was the predetermined plan of God. God vindicated His Son by raising and glorifying Him.
It is appointed men once to die and then the judgment. But He freed us from the bondage of sin and death.
All judgment has been given the Son, for the Father judges nobody. The cross was God reconciling man to Himself, for man was reconciled to God by Christ's death and men are saved through His life. Christ became a life giving Spirit.
This is the New Covenant, God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. The Light has come into the World. Men are condemned because they reject the Light. But as many as believe will live.
God will not substitute the righteous for the guilty, for this is an abomination. In this New Covenant God is just and the justifier of sinners. Man has been reconciled to God, and we have been given the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled.
What may be of more benefit here is to talk about what is actually written in God's Word.
The Word became flesh and shared in our infirmity. Christ bore our sins in His body, became a curse for us, and died for our sins. Men considered Him afflicted and striken by God, but His suffering was for our well-being. He died at the hands of the wicked which was the predetermined plan of God. God vindicated His Son by raising and glorifying Him.
It is appointed men once to die and then the judgment. But He freed us from the bondage of sin and death.
All judgment has been given the Son, for the Father judges nobody. The cross was God reconciling man to Himself, for man was reconciled to God by Christ's death and men are saved through His life. Christ became a life giving Spirit.
This is the New Covenant, God's righteousness manifested apart from the law. The Light has come into the World. Men are condemned because they reject the Light. But as many as believe will live.
God will not substitute the righteous for the guilty, for this is an abomination. In this New Covenant God is just and the justifier of sinners. Man has been reconciled to God, and we have been given the ministry of reconciliation, urging men to be reconciled.
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