John 20:23...Can Christians Forgive Sin???

[AVL1984]

Over the past week, I've had a few people talking about Jesus giving the disciples the right to forgive sins....Proof Text they've used. John 20:23...

I don't say that I agree with their exegesis of this passage, but it does say this...Sounds like more of a Catholic/Anglican doctrine...yet, I'm finding that there are some Baptists, CoG, AoG who believe this passage as well. How do you deal with this kind of proof text? I thought the Bible said that only Christ could forgive sin, and that Christ, not a priest was our one mediator between God and man.With the use of this proof text, how is this "false doctrine"? I know, but I'd like some input from others. Thanks.

 

[kyredneck]

Jesus giving the disciples the right to forgive sins....Proof Text they've used. John 20:23...

23 whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. Jn 20

...in the same vein as:

19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 16

18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 18

...and all about Apostolic authority in this temporal realm, NOT the eternal realm. Peter exercised it here:

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came upon all that heard it.
9 But Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out.
10 And she fell down immediately at his feet, and gave up the ghost: and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her by her husband. Acts 5

...Paul exercised it here:

3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing,
4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 cor 5

19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1

...the council at Jerusalem exercised their Apostolic authority here:

19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;
20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. Acts 15

 

[AVL1984]

23 whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. Jn 20

...in the same vein as:

19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 16

18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 18

...and all about Apostolic authority in this temporal realm, NOT the eternal realm. Peter exercised it here:

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came upon all that heard it.
9 But Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to try the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out.
10 And she fell down immediately at his feet, and gave up the ghost: and the young men came in and found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her by her husband. Acts 5

...Paul exercised it here:

3 For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing,
4 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 cor 5

19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme. 1 Tim 1

...the council at Jerusalem exercised their Apostolic authority here:

19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;
20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. Acts 15

So, is this in the "individual" Christian realm, or the "corporate" Christian/Church setting? The Catholics use the 19 proof text as their reason for believing that Simon Peter is the first pope, along with Christ calling him a small stone....We know that when Christ is talking about Peter being a small stone, he's not giving him the position of Pope.
Also, these men were the Apostles...the first generation of the Christian church...I've had some try to explain that this is only for the apostles. Truth or not?

 

[Van]

Sure we can forgive sin. The issue is does our forgiveness remove the consequence of the sin required by God? And of course that answer is no.

The verse says that if they forgive the sins of anyone, under certain conditions, those sins will be forgiven. What conditions?

John 3:36
“The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

The problem with some interpretations is they think the "if" conditional is satisfied by the Apostle choosing to forgive, rather than pointing to the prior verses.

If anyone believes into Him, his sins are forgiven. If anyone does not believe, the wrath of God remains of him.

 

[JesusFan]

Over the past week, I've had a few people talking about Jesus giving the disciples the right to forgive sins....Proof Text they've used. John 20:23...

I don't say that I agree with their exegesis of this passage, but it does say this...Sounds like more of a Catholic/Anglican doctrine...yet, I'm finding that there are some Baptists, CoG, AoG who believe this passage as well. How do you deal with this kind of proof text? I thought the Bible said that only Christ could forgive sin, and that Christ, not a priest was our one mediator between God and man.With the use of this proof text, how is this "false doctrine"? I know, but I'd like some input from others. Thanks.

The Apostles themselves had NO authority to forgive sins, as they were pointing all sinners to the Lord Jesus, as He ALONE can forgive their sins!
Under authority of the bible, if any reject Jesus to save therm, sins still remain!

 

[kyredneck]

I've had some try to explain that this is only for the apostles. Truth or not?

Truth.

 

[37818]

A person who receives Christ has one's sins forgiven and those who reject Christ their sins are not forgiven. John 20:23.

 

[AVL1984]

A person who receives Christ has one's sins forgiven and those who reject Christ their sins are not forgiven. John 20:23.

I don't see anyone denying that ....your comment is nowhere in line with the conversation. The OP doesn't ask about this.

 

[JonC]

Matthew 6:15 is the interesting to add to the thread -

But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

 

[37818]

I don't see anyone denying that ....your comment is nowhere in line with the conversation. The OP doesn't ask about this.

Well, I believe that to be the main meaning of those words. Per Acts 1:8.

 

[37818]

Matthew 6:15 is the interesting to add to the thread -

But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Under the Law. Hebrews 10:17 the forgiveness is full and complete.

 

[JonC]

Under the Law. Hebrews 10:17 the forgiveness is full and complete.

The Law had no provisions for the forgiveness of sins, particularly based on the dinner forgiving another who sinned against him.

Consider also Peter's words to believers:

1 Peter 1:17–19 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

 

[37818]

The Law had no provisions for the forgiveness of sins, particularly based on the dinner forgiving another who sinned against him.

Consider also Peter's words to believers:

1 Peter 1:17–19 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

Leviticus 19:18, ". . . thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." The requirement to forgive in order to be forgiven is a work. The promise found in Hebrews 10:17, "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more," is a promise of the New Covenant not requiring that work. [Jeremiah 31:31-34.] That is why I identified that work as Law.

 

[AVL1984]

Matthew 6:15 is the interesting to add to the thread -

But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

So, how does this tie in to the apostles being able to forgive sins, remitting and keeping sins attached to people? We can forgive their actions towards us, yes, but how can we forgive their actions towards someone else or against God?

 

[JonC]

Leviticus 19:18, ". . . thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD." The requirement to forgive in order to be forgiven is a work. The promise found in Hebrews 10:17, "And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more," is a promise of the New Covenant not requiring that work. [Jeremiah 31:31-34.] That is why I identified that work as Law.

What I am saying is that there was no requirement to forgive in order to be forgiven under the Law.

 

[JonC]

So, how does this tie in to the apostles being able to forgive sins, remitting and keeping sins attached to people? We can forgive their actions towards us, yes, but how can we forgive their actions towards someone else or against God?

The title. Can Christians forgive sins?

 

[AVL1984]

I don't believe anyone is addressing the part of the verse where Jesus says that sins can be retained or remitted...how can that be? The Bible clearly teaches, as some have posted here in this thread, that if we don't forgive, then we can't be forgiven....so how can we force remission or retention of sins onto a person? Was this SPECIFICALLY for the Apostles to have this ability, or did it continue on through the church and to all Christians throughout history?? We see clearly that the RCC and the GOC teach that the PRIESTS have this ability...this has been one of the KEY VERSES that they use. Did this ability to do so die with the Apostles?

 

[37818]

What I am saying is that there was no requirement to forgive in order to be forgiven under the Law.

Then either grace is a false teaching [Romans 11:6] or the teaching one must forgive in order to be forgiven is a false teaching. By reason to forgive in order to be forgiven is a work and a requirement is a Law.

 

[JonC]

Then either grace is a false teaching [Romans 11:6] or the teaching one must forgive in order to be forgiven is a false teaching. By reason to forgive in order to be forgiven is a work and a requirement is a Law.

No. We do not forgive as a work. We forgive because we have been forgiven (Ephesians 4:32). So if we do not forgive others then God will not forgive us.

You are looking at this from the perspective of the Pharisees. When Christ says "If you love Me keep My commandments" this does not mean "keep My commandments to love me". It is descriptive.

A Christian that does not forgive others is not a Christian, they remain in their sins. A Christian forgives others because he has been forgiven.

We don't get to pick which passages to believe. Paul's words in Romans does not contradict his words in Ephesians, and neither contradicts Jesus' words in Matthew. They say the same thing.

 

[37818]

No. We do not forgive as a work. We forgive because we have been forgiven (Ephesians 4:32).

Ephesians 2:10. It is a work, but solely after being saved. Since in Christ forgiveness is completely do to grace, then the requirement to forgive in order to be forgiven can only be under the Law. Therefore as I argued it is Law.