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Psalm 2:12 "Son" not actually in the text?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 5 point Gillinist, Apr 23, 2022.

  1. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    I've seen arguments from Rabbi(s) that "son" is not actually in the text;

    Hebrew Tanakh "12 Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way, when suddenly His wrath is kindled. {N}
    Happy are all they that take refuge in Him. {P}"

    But the English versions say; "Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!" - NASB95

    My question is, is this true? You can hear one Rabbi's argument here;

    In Psalm 2:12 does God say 'Kiss the Son'? - Tovia Singer

    Whether or not "son" should be in 12 I think the rest of the Psalm (especially v.7 and v.11) makes clear that the assertion of the Rabbi is false, and not all that dissimilar to proof-texting that others do to prove their point rather than deal with the verse in context.

    As a side note, this Rabbi also argues against the validity of the KJV by saying it was translated by anti-semites and is therefore the words of men.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    That is untrue. Ignorance from a Rabbi. The KJV Translators respected and consulted Syriac language and scripture, which is a semitic language. They also read, studied, spoke Hebrew, which of course a Semitic language. The Rabbi is a liar who is anti saviour.
     
  3. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    Well, the Rabbi's assertion that "son" is not in v. 12 fails to deal with the fact that the whole Psalm discusses the Lord's anointed. It is meant to mislead those who aren't paying attention to the whole picture, and it isn't really an argument.
    As with the KJV translators, it is easier to attack the character of men who aren't alive to defend themselves, whilst also relying on the fact that people will take your word for it, therefore discrediting the "Christian bible" (as he puts it) due to racism.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Undoubtedly the Rabbi is aware of the connection KJV (and others) make between the seed of the serpent of Gen 3:15 and 'that generation' of Jews that murdered Christ.
     
  5. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    • Dr. Laurence Chadderton was for thirty-eight years Master of Emanuel College, Cambridge, and well versed in Rabbinical learning. He was one of the few Puritan divines among the translators. Born 1537; died 1640, at the advanced age of one hundred and three.
    • Dr. Miles Smith was a student of classic authors from his youth, was well acquainted with the Rabbinical learning, and well versed in Hebrew, Chaldee, Syriac and Arabic. He was often called a "walking library." Born about 1568, died 1624.
    John Boyse, or Bois, at six years of age could write Hebrew elegantly. He was for twelve years chief lecturer in Greek at St. John's College, Cambridge. Bishop Andrewes, of Ely, made him a prebend in his church in 1615. He was one of the most laborious of all the revisers. Born 1560, died 1643


    I could go on and on with different KING JAMES TRANSLATORS. They studied, spoke, translated and loved Semitic languages.

    History of the King James Version
     
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  6. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    Well, neither biblical truth nor historical facts matter to Tovia. He has an agenda, and that is to deny His king.
     
  7. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    Truth is racist too I suppose, just like everything else.
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Titus 1:12-13

    .... can't identify the Cretans, not allowed! :)
     
  9. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    I doubt it. Truth is not racist.
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    There's no doubt it's a Messianic Psalm.
     
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  11. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Psalm 2:12
    נַשְּׁקוּ־בַ֡ר

    The word “Son” (br) is Aramaic, not Hebrew (bn).
    Translating it as "son" presents a dating problem for the psalm's composition.

    Confirmation with the Dead Sea Scrolls is not possible since they are missing the end of Ps. 2

    Robert Alter in his translation of Psalm 2 writes:

    12 With purity be armed,
    lest He rage and you be lost on the way.​
    For His wrath in a moment flares up.
    Happy, all who shelter in Him.​

    "The two words nashqu bar are the first of a long series of textual cruces in Psalms. As they stand, they make little sense, and the most elaborate efforts have been undertaken--none very convincing--to make the text mean something by extensive reconstructive surgery. The present translation hews to the Masoretic Text, merely revocalizing bar (son? wheat?) as bor, "purity." The usual sense of the verb nashqu is "to kiss," but it also means "to bear [or wield] arms" (compare its use in Psalm 78:9, 1 Chronicles 12:2 and 2 Chronicles 17:17). As an idiom, to arm oneself with purity is not otherwise attested to in the Bible, but it might make sense here as a counterpoint to the implied raising of arms against Zion at the beginning of the psalm."​

    The Septuagint has “Seize upon instruction” (NETS), "Take hold of instruction" (Lexham English Septuagint).
    These readings may better reflect the original.

    Psalm 2:12a

    Douay Rheims
    Embrace discipline, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and you perish from the just way.

    Wycliffe
    Take ye lore; lest the Lord be wrooth sumtyme, and lest ye perischen fro iust waie.

    Sharpe Bible (1865)
    Embrace purity, lest he be angry, And ye perish from the way,

    JPS 1917
    Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way,

    Rob
     
    #11 Deacon, Apr 23, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2022
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    YLT:
    12
    Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry, And ye lose the way, When His anger burneth but a little, O the happiness of all trusting in Him!
     
  13. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    Well if the Rabbi can distract you from the rest of the Psalm and V.12's context and instead get you to doubt that "son" should be the wording then he has accomplished what he was intending to do. Which is to overshadow the rest of the Psalm and its distinct Messianic prophecy.
     
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well, he's a long way to go, I count no less than five NT references to this Psalm.
     
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  15. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    Like you said earlier - the promised Messiah was (and is) known by the Jews to be a male and to be descended from the line of David. This man beclowns himself with his mental gymnastics.
     
  16. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

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    3Q2 Psalms

    Language: Hebrew

    Date: 30 B.C. - 68 A.D.

    Location: Qumran Cave 3

    Contents: Psalms 2:6-7



    Psalms 2

    6 “Yet I have set my King on my holy hill of Zion.”

    7 I will tell of the decree.

    Yahweh said to me, “You are my son.

    Today I have become your father.

    Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls - 3Q2 Psalms
     
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  17. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    This verse is quoted by Paul in Acts 13 in a sermon to Jews and sets the context of being the spiritual birth of Jesus at his resurrection and not his physical birth at Bethlehem.

    Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    This is not about a birth of an only begotten son from the womb but about a birth of the first begotten son from the dead.

    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    "Son" is the most important word in the whole of Psa 2.
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Proverbs 31:2, ". . . What, my son? and what, O son of my womb? And what, O son of my vows? . . ." Tanakh 1917
    Psalms 2:12, ". . . Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way, When suddenly His wrath is kindled. Happy are all they that take refuge in Him. . . ."
     
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