Featured About a Pastor who was twice a 5 point Calvinist.

Austin how do you read that into what I wrote? You are just trying to be provocative with those comments. The fact you do not actually believe that God is sovereign is shown by the fact you deny Him the ability to do as He chooses. If He does not fit into your calvinist philosophy then He is not being sovereign. You have a warped view of sovereignty and of God.

 

There you go saying God determines all things yet you then want to deny He determines all things when it is pointed out to you that would require that He is the one responsible for all those that are condemned just because He determined that they be.

If you actually looked at the DoG with open eyes you would see how bad it is but I doubt that will ever happen as you are to invested in that philosophy.

 

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

 

So do I but you fail to accept that fact that your theology also makes God the one that decrees all those that will be condemned for no other reason than He chose to do so. Remember it is you theology that says He has to determine all things or He is not sovereign. A molecule, much less a man, can't move unless He says so.

 

There you go reading into the text what you need to find to support your theology. So it is not the bible you believe but rather what you think the bible says. That is not bad theology rather it is not theology at all it is wishful thinking.

 

Nope. False philosophy.

He had appointed others to wrath,
and who are therefore called "vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction",
by their own sins and transgressions,

#1Th 5:9;
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Ro 9:22.
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

from; His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"
-Doctrinal Book 2, Chapter 3;
The Decree Of Rejection,
Of Some Angels, And Of Some Men

Some will have it, that this refers to something forewritten,
as they choose to render the word;

to some prophecy concerning the condemnation of those persons,
and particularly to that of Enoch, #Jude 1:14,15;

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these,
saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all,
and to convince all that are ungodly among them
of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed,
and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

but it is not certain that prophecy was ever written;

besides, a prophecy, or prediction, of anything future, is founded upon an antecedent predetermination and appointment;

God foretells by His prophets what will be because He has determined it shall be;

if, therefore, the condemnation of those persons was foretold in any written prophecy,
it was because God had decreed it should come upon them, or they be brought into it.
It seems to have the same sense with God's appointing men unto wrath;

which, though not in so many words expressed, is manifestly implied;

as when the apostle says, "God hath not appointed us to wrath",
who yet were children of wrath, and deserving of it as others;

"but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ": it suggests,
that though He had not appointed them, yet He had appointed others to wrath,
and who are therefore called "vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction",
by their own sins and transgressions, #1Th 5:9 Ro 9:22.

With which agrees what is said of some wicked men,
who are "reserved" in the Purposes and Decrees of God,
"to the day of destruction";

in consequence of which, "they shall be brought to the day of wrath",
which God has Appointed for the execution of His wrath;

and hence the casting of the fury of His wrath, in all the dreadful instances of it,
is called "the portion of a wicked man from God,
and the heritage appointed; unto him of God", #Job 21:30 20:23-29
and this is the sense of #Pr 16:4 for the meaning of the text is not,
nor is it our sense of it, as some misrepresent it, as if God made man to damn him;

we say no such thing, nor does the text;

our sentiment is, that God made man neither to damn nor save him;

but he made him for his own glory,
and he will be glorified in him, in one way or another:
nor that he made man wicked, in order to damn him;

for God made man upright;

men made themselves wicked by their own inventions;

which are the cause of damnation: but the true sense of the passage is,
that "the Lord hath made", that is, has appointed "all things for Himself",
for His own Glory:

and should it be objected, that the wicked could not be for His Glory,
it is added, "Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil";

that is, He has appointed the wicked for the day of evil,
to suffer justly for their sins, to the illustration of the Glory of His Justice.

 

If you knew how God Saves souls,
you would see God killing an animal to make a "covering" for them,
as a picture of Him Teaching them The Gospel.

Hebrews 9:22
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;
and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Is there any, "blood", in your Model of How God Saves souls?

 

False philosophy. He left them where they were and wanted to be.

"The election hath obtained it"; and "the rest are blinded",
#Ro 11:7 Left blind.

John 3:19
"And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world,
and men loved the darkness rather than the Light;
for their deeds were evil."

 

Sliverhair, how do you read that into what I wrote? You are just trying to be provocative with those comments. The fact you do not actually believe that God is sovereign is shown by the fact you deny Him the ability to do as He chooses. If He does not fit into your humanist philosophy then He is not being sovereign. You have a warped view of sovereignty and of God.

 

Cardinal Doctrine, man.

The "reason" man NEEDS a SAVIOR.

Romans 5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

#Ro 5:19. "For as by one man's disobedience man were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous".

Adam, the common parent of all mankind,
and who is expressed by name,
#Ro 5:14 where this offence and disobedience is called
"the transgression of Adam";

and so in #1Co 15:22. "In Adam all die", being all in him,
and having sinned in him, death comes upon them for it;

but then this is to be understood of Adam not to the exclusion of Eve,
who was also in the transgression, and first in it,
and was the mother of all living.

They both have the same name, the same appellative name, "man";

the same proper name, Adam, #Ge 5:1-2 were of the same nature;

nay, Eve was formed out of a rib of Adam;

was flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone;

a part of himself; and by their marriage relation became one flesh,
#Ge 2:21-24 they had the same law given them,
which forbid the eating of the fruit of a certain tree;

the same covenant was made with them,
and they were both guilty of the same act of disobedience;

and had a sentence of punishment pronounced on them both;

and which did not rest on their own persons only,
but is common to all their posterity, and still continues;

which shows that their posterity had a concern
in their act of disobedience,
in the guilt of it, since they share in their punishment,
as all the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve do;

Chapter 7: Of the Law given to Adam, and Covenant with him
Chapter 8: Of the Sin and Fall of our First Parents
Chapter 9: Of the Nature, Aggravations, and sad Effects of the
Sin of Man
Chapter 10: Of the Imputation of Adam's Sin to all his Posterity
Chapter 11: Of the Corruption of Human Nature
Chapter 12: Of Actual Sins and Transgressions
Chapter 13: Of the Punishment of Sin

from; the Corruption of Human Nature

There is such a depravity and corruption of mankind.

1a. The heathens themselves have acknowledged and lamented it;

they assert, that no man is born without sin {1};

that every man is naturally vicious {2};

that there is an evil disposition, or vicious affection,
that is implanted and grows up in men {3};

and that there is a fatal portion of evil in all when born,
from whence are the depravity of the soul, diseases, &c. {4}

and that the cause of viciosity is rather from our parents,
and from first principles, than from ourselves {5}:

and Cicero

{6} particularly laments that men should be brought into life by nature
as a stepmother, with a naked, frail, and infirm body,
and with a mind or soul prone to lusts.


1b. Revelation asserts it; the Scriptures abound
with testimonies of the depravity of the soul,
affirming that no man can be born pure and clean;

that whatever is born of the flesh,
or comes into the world by ordinary generation,
is flesh, carnal and corrupt;

that all men, Jews and Gentiles, are under sin,
under the guilt, pollution and dominion of sin;

that the imagination of the thoughts of man's heart is only evil,
and that continually;

that the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked;

and that out of it proceeds all that is vile and sinful,

#Job 14:4 Joh 3:6 Ro 3:9 Ge 6:5 Jer 17:9 #Mt 15:19.



1c. Reason confirms it, that so it must be;

that if a tree is corrupt, it can bring forth no other than corrupt fruit;

that if the root of mankind is unholy, the branches must be so too;

if the fountain is impure, the streams must be so likewise;

if immediate parents are unclean, their posterity must be unclean,
since a clean thing cannot be brought out of an unclean;

and if God has made of one man's blood all nations
that are upon the face of the earth,
and that blood is tainted with sin,
all that proceed from him by ordinary generation
must have the same taint.



1d. All experience testifies the truth of this;

no man was ever born into the world without sin;

no one has ever been exempt from this contagion
and defilement of nature,

"there is none that doeth good, no not one",
#Ro 3:10

that does good naturally and of himself;

the reason is, because there is none by nature good;

of all the millions of men that have proceeded from Adam
by ordinary generation, not one has been found without sin;

there is but one individual of human nature
that can be mentioned as an exception to this,
and that is the human nature of Christ;

and that is excepted because of its wonderful production,
and did not descend from Adam by ordinary generation.



1e. The necessity of redemption by Christ,
and of regeneration by the Spirit of Christ,
shows that men must be in a corrupt state,
or there would have been no need of these.

The redemption of men from sin, and from a vain conversation,
supposes them to be under the power of sin,
and the influence of it, to lead a vain sinful life;

and if men were free from the pollution of sin,
the blood of Christ to cleanse from all sin
would have been unnecessary;

His being made wisdom, righteousness, sanctification,
and redemption to them, implies that they were foolish and unwise,
that they were unrighteous and unholy, and slaves to sin and Satan: regeneration and sanctification
are absolutely necessary to a man's enjoyment of eternal happiness;

"except a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God";

and

"without holiness no man shall see the Lord",
#Joh 3:3 Heb 12:14

but what occasion would there have been
for man's being born again,
or having a new or supernatural birth,
if he was not defiled by his first and natural birth;

or of being sanctified, if he was not unholy and unclean?
see #1Co 6:9-11.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous
shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters,
nor adulterers, nor effeminate,
nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards,
nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed,
but ye are Sanctified, but ye are Justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus,
and by the Spirit of our God."
...
Sometimes it goes by the name of the "old man",
because it is the effect of the poison of the old serpent;

it is near as old as the first man;

and is as old as every man in whom it is;

it exists as early as man himself does,
#Ro 6:6 Eph 4:22.

Very often it is called flesh,
because it is propagated by the flesh,
and is carnal and corrupt,
and is opposed to the spirit or principle of grace,
which is from the Spirit of God;

and in which no good thing,
nothing that is spiritual, dwells,
#Joh 3:6 Ga 5:17 #Ro 7:18,25.

Once more, it is named, "lust" or "concupiscence";

which is sin itself, and the mother of all sin;

it consists of various branches, called fleshly lusts,
and worldly lusts, the lust of the flesh,
the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life,
#Ro 7:7 #Jas 1:15 1Jo 2:15.

The Jews commonly call it, the evil figment, or imagination.

 

Alan I agree with what the bible says but not with what the theology that you follow says. Your calvinist theology is deterministic to the point that God has to control all things but you ignore the dark side of calvinism because you realize just how bad it is.

 

You read into scripture what you want to find but at the same time you ignore what the text actually says.

 

The bible teaches free will your theology teaches determinism, they are not comparable. You will continue to pull verses out of context in the attempt to support you philosophy but that is just an attempt at proof texting and sorry it does not work. Step back and look at what calvinism teaches about the character of God.

 

Austin you do realize that what you copied from me just shows how empty your theology is.
Is God sovereign YES can He do whatever He wants YES. So If both of the forgoing statements are true then the question becomes why can this sovereign God not grant His creatures free will? He can give human beings free will if He wants to. If He’s not allowed to, then how is He sovereign? This is just one of the problems I find in Calvinism.

There in lays the problem with calvinism. Austin you say God is sovereign then deny that He can be sovereign. That is your twisted theology. Look at your own words Austin. How many times have you denied the actual sovereignty of God? God is either sovereign or He is not, you have to make up your mind which one He is.

 

But what does the bible tell us about how man is saved?
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Notice God saves those that trust in the son just as we see here Ephesians 1:13 or here Romans 10:9-10. How do you keep missing this?

 

"reprobate silver shall men call them,
because the Lord hath rejected them", #Jer 6:30

 

Why not include the issue of, "sin",
as these passages do in their preceding verses?

Does, "sin", exist in your plan of Salvation?

Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
is True enough, however, this fact doesn't Save.

Does, "CONVICTION", exist in your plan of Salvation?

Not only mental persuasion but SPIRITUAL,
HEART-FELT CONVICTION is an absolute necessity
if the soul is to be CONVERTED to CHRIST.

An individual sinner must be CONVICTED of SIN
and their heart must be Smitten with Godly Sorrow over their SIN.

Does, "REPENTANCE", exist in your plan of Salvation?

REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD of their SIN must be Wrought in them,
before they will, in fact, Come to CHRIST.

Luke 13:5; "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent,
ye shall all likewise perish."

The Law was Given that SIN might appear SINFUL
and individual sinners might (in their hearts) realize their GUILT.

Prior to Romans 3:21;

Romans 3:19-20;
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith,
it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

CONSENT to "trust", "believe", "have faith",
without CONVICTION and REPENTANCE
LEAVES LOST SOULS, LOST.

CONSENT of SIN without CONVICTION and REPENTANCE
LEAVES LOST SOULS, LOST.

Does, "REGENERATION", exist in your plan of Salvation?

I SEE NO REGENERATION in your 'plan of salvation.

THERE MUST BE SPIRITUAL CONVICTION of SIN,
TO BE FORGIVEN.

Prior to Ephesians 1:13;

Ephesians 1:3; "Blessed be the God
and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings
in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame
before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children
by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace,
wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood,
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will,
according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
he might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of him
who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory,
who first trusted in Christ."

Prior to Romans 10:9-10;

"Brethren, my heart's desire
and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God,
but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness,
and going about to establish their own righteousness,
have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness
to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law,
That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith
speaketh on this wise,
Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven?
(that is, to bring Christ down from above

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep?
(that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee,
even in thy mouth, and in thy heart:
that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"

They Preached Repentance and Faith.

 

Adam had Free Will and sinned against God.

All of Adams Posterity have Free Will
and can ONLY SIN AGAINST GOD, with their "will".

 

God is Sovereign
God doesn't want to do anything or whatever is possible to do. For example, God doesn't want to bow down to Satan therefore he doesn't do whatever is possible. Therefore you do not understand what Sovereignty entails.
When a Sovereign ruler makes a Covenant, he cannot break the Covenant he made without penalty to himself. He has put constraints upon himself while still remaining sovereign.

You are attempting to force God to do things he has never said He will do and then tell me I don't believe God is Sovereign. You have purposely distorted God into your image and thus you show us your humanism.

Which I just showed you are not true since you are forcing the statement.

Here you jump from a false statement to a false conclusion.

God left Adam to choose for himself. Adam chose rebellion against the Covenant God, the Supreme Sovereign over all Creation, had made with Adam. Therefore every offspring of Adam consequently chooses rebellion against God. The Bible tells us we are therefore slaves to sin.

Sliverhair, are all humans born in slavery to sin? Is God speaking truth or lying?

*Romans 6:20-23*
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here you keep begging the original assertion that was demonstrably false at the start. Therefore your entire proposal is in err.