No Bible Doctrine Called Sovereign Grace

[JD731]

The whole idea of sovereign grace is ridiculous, and really, idiotic. This is not to say that folks who currently hold and teach this doctrine are idiots, but it does mean they have allowed themselves to forsake reasoning and logic and to follow someone from the near past who has invented this doctrine.

God can be sovereign in anything if he wants to be, but he does not want to be. Therefore he did not even use the word in his 66 books that make up our Bible. Yet, his sovereignty is the foundation of a whole religious movement that began in the 16th century. All the words in the scriptures have had to be redefined and managed and otherwise rendered insufficient in their presentation in order for this system to even make a little sense.

The fact that he is dealing with men concerning his gift of salvation through Christ in this age under the principle of grace and saying whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely is proof that his grace is not limited by his sovereignty, if by sovereignty one means he WILL not allow some (most) to believe him and come.

Whosoever will and limited atonement are mutually exclusive. They don't mean the same thing.

God is redefined by those who teach his actions on this earth among men are the expression of his sovereignty. It limits God to one principle and no others. It is one of the worse doctrines ever presented to men.

 

[Salty]

.... Therefore he did not even use the word in his 66 books that make up our Bible. ...

Remember, the NT never once uses the words, Rapture, Trinity, or Pastor!

So that in itself is not a valid argument.

Sounds like a very interesting thread - and I will be on the sidelines watching.

 

[KenH]

The whole idea of sovereign grace is ridiculous, and really, idiotic.

The total absolute sovereignty of the Creator of the universe is a truth opposed by those who hate that they are not the "captain of their own fate" and are repulsed by God being the Potter and they being merely clay.


"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:

All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psalm 139:16)

The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster. (Proverbs 16:4)

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21:1)

All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?" (Daniel 4:35)

Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." (James 4:13-15)

All things are decided and caused by God – nothing is free from his control, and he has not chosen to forego his control on anything. The doctrine is repulsive to those who abhor the rule and honor of God, and so they oppose it. But the doctrine is a source of comfort and celebration to those who love him. Why would we want it any other way, than for God to rule over all things? And what better life can we wish for, than to be ruled by God?"

- Vincent Cheung, Systematic Theology

(emphasis mine)

(continued)

 

[KenH]

"The doctrine contradicts the religious tradition that God does not decree evil or that he does not cause evil. Of course God does not make decrees against his other decrees. Since God is not insane, he has only one will, one desire. However, there is no problem for him to issue a decree that causes his creatures to violate his precepts. Whereas decrees are declarations of intentions about things that he would cause to happen, precepts are declarations of definitions, not intentions, and do not overlap with the decrees. It must be true that God decrees and causes events that are contrary to his precepts; otherwise, there could be no evil, but there is indeed evil. Therefore, God must be the metaphysical author of sin and evil.

This does not mean that God himself is evil. To metaphysically cause evil and to morally commit evil are two different things. One is a matter of ability to cause something, while the other is a matter of conformity to a principle. The Bible teaches that God is the one who defines right and wrong, and that sin is a transgression of God's law. Therefore, for God to commit evil by causing evil – for this to be bad or wrong – he must declare a moral law that forbids himself to decree or to cause evil, that is, to decree or to cause his creatures to transgress his law. There is no biblical basis to suppose that God has declared such a law against himself. Indeed, the Bible teaches that all that God says and does are right and good. If he says it, it must be true. If he does it, it must be good. Therefore, since God is sovereign and there is evil, God must be the cause of evil, and since he is the cause of evil, it must be right and good for him to be the cause of evil.

There is no divine law that says God would be wrong if he were to be the cause of evil. Why, then, do men assume that it would be evil for God to be the author of sin? What law would God transgress? He would transgress the law of men, or what men have imposed upon him to define what a righteous God must or must not do. This is the sinister truth behind the religious tradition that says God is not the author of sin, for if he were to be such, it would mean that he has transgressed a law that men has declared against him. The necessary conclusion is that the doctrine that God is not the author of sin, or that it is blasphemy and heresy to say that he is, is itself the real blasphemy and heresy. Unless God is the author of sin and evil, he is not completely sovereign, and he is not God. Therefore, to deny that God is the author of sin and evil is to deny God.

The Bible teaches that God's decrees and actions are always right and good. Since he is completely sovereign, and there is evil in this universe, this means that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe. But since his decrees and actions are always right and good, then this means that it is right and good that he is the one who decrees and causes evil in this universe. The very fact that he decrees and causes evil means that it is right and good for him to do so.58 There is no authority or standard higher than God by which to condemn him. If he thinks that it is good for him to cause evil, then it is good for him to cause evil."

- Vincent Cheung, Systematic Theology

(continued)

 

[KenH]

"This does not mean that evil is good, which would be a contradiction. Sin is defined as a transgression of God's moral law, and when we say that God is the author of sin, we are saying that God is the metaphysical cause of a creature's transgression of God's moral law. God transgresses no moral law, since there is no moral law against what he does, but he causes the creature to transgress. Morality relates to moral law. But there is no moral law against sovereign metaphysical power. It is right and good for God to metaphysically cause evil, just because he does it, and because he has not declared himself wrong for doing it. It is wrong for man to morally commit evil, because God has declared man wrong for doing it, although it is God who metaphysically causes man to do it. Therefore, God remains righteous, and the sinner remains evil. The distinctions are clear. There is no paradox or contradiction, and also no biblical or logical basis for objection against the doctrine.

Does this make God a tyrant? If the word simply means, "an absolute ruler,"59 then of course God is a tyrant. And since he is the sole moral authority, the very fact that he is a tyrant means that he ought to be one, that it is good and just for him to be one. The negative connotations of the word apply only to human beings, since no man is worthy of absolute authority or capable to wield it. But God is "an absolute ruler" – that is what it means to be God."

- Vincent Cheung, Systematic Theology

 

[JD731]

Remember, the NT never once uses the words, Rapture, Trinity, or Pastor!

So that in itself is not a valid argument.

Sounds like a very interesting thread - and I will be on the sidelines watching.

True, but he did explain himself and his salvation is not presented to the world under the principle of his sovereignty. If you wanted to argue, you might have more success arguing that he presented the Mosaic Law, or the moral law (written in our consciousness) under the principle of sovereignty. Under that principle, the violator is sentenced to eternal separation from God in the lake of fire, which is the second death for willingly and with knowledge and forethought of his actions breaking just the simplest precept of that law..

One cannot argue sovereignty in grace that brings salvation of the violators because the violators would need to agree with God that he has a right to judge and we have indeed sinned against him and deserve the punishment he has warned us of. Thus sayeth the scriptures.

 

[Salty]

True, but he did explain himself and his salvation is not presented to the world under the principle of his sovereignty. If you wanted to argue, ...

My statement stands - just because a certain word for a doctrine is not in the Bible - ie Trinity - does not prove that doctrine one way or the other.
Yes he needs to explain himself ....
Mind you - I am just a bystander in this thread!

 

[KenH]

God can be sovereign in anything if he wants to be, but he does not want to be.

The sentence above is nonsense and opposed to what the Scriptures teach.

Isaiah 45:7-9 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; But the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

Daniel 4:35 and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Psalm 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, In the seas, and all deep places.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, As the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

 

[KenH]

It is one of the worse doctrines ever presented to men.

According to some people, Christ died to give all a chance of being saved! I do not know that I hate anything more in my soul than to hear that. It makes Jesus Christ so little - that He should do so much, and after all only to get us a chance of being saved. Why, if a man is set up in business, you see how often it happens that he fails in it; and if man cannot manage the paltry things of time and sense without being insolvent, what will he do with eternal realities? And if you come a little closer, when God "made man upright" and he had no sinful nature, what did he do with his innocence? He lost it all! And yet poor presumptuous man has the vanity to think you and I could manage the chance of being saved. What an insult it is to the Lord Jesus Christ to fix the eternal honor of God upon chance, and that chance to be managed by a poor sinful creature who is tumbling into half a dozen holes every hour of his life! NO, NO. Thanks be to God for immortal realities and certainties. WHAT IS SAID CONCERNING WHAT CHRIST HAS DONE? He has "put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself;" He has "finished transgression and made an end of sin;" He has "redeemed us from all iniquity;" He has "redeemed us from the curse of the law," from destruction and from the power of the devil; He has "obtained eternal redemption for us;" He has "redeemed us to God." To the honor of the Eternal Trinity it is said, not that the redeemed shall have a chance, but that the redeemed shall "come to Zion with songs, and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." The Lord Jesus Christ has done this "great" work; and He has gone to heaven shouting "Victory," for "God is gone up with a shout; the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." He rose from the grave as a demonstrative proof that sin was destroyed, law satisfied, God honored, His people eternally and everlastingly saved. And the immortal honors of God unite in their salvation; therefore, He ever lives at the right hand of the Father to make intercession.

- Why Did Christ Die? - William Gadsby (pristinegrace.org)

(emphasis mine)

 

[DaveXR650]

@JD731. Of course grace is sovereign whether you are a Calvinist or not. Do you believe that you have sinned and can do nothing to be saved, and have built up a list of offenses that would leave you lost even if you could straighten up and fly right? Do you believe that the only remedy for your condition is faith in the atoning work of Christ on your behalf? Was that God's plan or did any of us humans have anything to do with it or was our opinion consulted in the matter? If those answers are yes then grace and the plan of salvation was totally sovereign.

 

[37818]

A problem of language. God by virtue of who He is, is sovereign. He cannot not be. Nor not in what He does or says.
Romans 6:23, ". . . the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. . . ."

 

[AustinC]

God can be sovereign in anything if he wants to be, but he does not want to be.

Here is your assertion. Now prove your assertion in scripture.

*Psalm 135:5-14*
For I know that the Lord is great, and that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth, who makes lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from his storehouses. He it was who struck down the firstborn of Egypt, both of man and of beast; who in your midst, O Egypt, sent signs and wonders against Pharaoh and all his servants; who struck down many nations and killed mighty kings, Sihon, king of the Amorites, and Og, king of Bashan, and all the kingdoms of Canaan, and gave their land as a heritage, a heritage to his people Israel. Your name, O Lord, endures forever, your renown, O Lord, throughout all ages. For the Lord will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants.

Your claim comes not from God, but from your rebellious heart.

 

[Silverhair]

The total absolute sovereignty of the Creator of the universe is a truth opposed by those who hate that they are not the "captain of their own fate" and are repulsed by God being the Potter and they being merely clay.


"God's will determines all the choices and circumstances of his creatures, so that nothing is up to man's "free will." In fact, because God is completely sovereign, man has no free will:

These words say it all,you have made God the author of evil. According to you man has not free will so all the sins he commits are the direct result of God decreeing that he do them. Which by your theology makes God the sinner. So you theology is anti-bible at the core.

 

[Marooncat79]

So God is just sitting there in heaven, anxiously wringing his hands just hoping that we will trust in Christ?

is that you position?

 

[Marooncat79]

These words say it all,you have made God the author of evil. According to you man has not free will so all the sins he commits are the direct result of God decreeing that he do them. Which by your theology makes God the sinner. So you theology is anti-bible at the core.

God makes no one sin. We do well enough on our own

 

[Marooncat79]

A problem of language. God by virtue of who He is, is sovereign. He cannot not be. Nor not in what He does or says.
Romans 6:23, ". . . the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. . . ."

Yes, Cals believe that God freely disposed to us Grace and the Gift of Eternal Life.

At the same time He regenerates our hearts, He grants to us Faith and Repentance hence they are called Grace Gifts

 

[37818]

Yes, Cals believe that God freely disposed to us Grace and the Gift of Eternal Life.

At the same time He regenerates our hearts, He grants to us Faith and Repentance hence they are called Grace Gifts

Do you have one explicit text to show this?

 

[Marooncat79]

Yes

Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[37818]

Yes

Ephesians 2:8-9

It explicitly has faith precede regeneration.". . . through faith . . . ."

 

[AustinC]

It explicitly has faith precede regeneration.". . . through faith . . . ."

Only if you utterly ignore Ephesians 2:4-6.

"But God...even when we were still dead...made us alive with Christ."