How is God a Just God AND a Savior?

[KenH]

IF we love Jesus then that is all that matters.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

[JonC]

So you don't think that Bill Parker encourages those who attend Eager Avenue Grace Church in Albany, Georgia, to search and study the Scriptures? Wow! That is extremely arrogant on your part.

I don't know.

I thought the pastor honest, and just overstated or used poor wording in the article.

You convinced me that Parker may not be the most honest pastor.

That is not arrogance on my part, I never met the man. I'm just going off of your words and your insistence that Parkers understanding is the only understanding that addresses those issues.

 

[JonC]

I couldn't disagree more.

I know. And that is sad.

But if we love God with all our heart, soul, and strength then there is nothing lacking.

 

[KenH]

That is not arrogance on my part, I never met the man.

Then you ought to stop talking about him unless you first go and read and/or listen to more than just the few sentences that I posted in the OP. I think you are just being cantankerous. I understand, as I have described myself as being old, can be cantankerous, and I yell at clouds.

 

[KenH]

(it was an ANE cultural omen).

What does "ANE" stand for?

 

[JonC]

Then you ought to stop talking about him unless you first go and read and/or listen to more than just the few sentences that I posted in the OP. I think you are just being cantankerous. I understand, as I have described myself as being old, can be cantankerous, and I yell at clouds.

I am probably being more cantankerous than not.

I will listen to him, and would visit the church 8f I were closer to hear a sermon.

I do not object to his view. I was only noting that there are interpretations other than his that also present God as just and justifier.

I believe that if we are going to bring in other views then we have to first understand those views and exactly how they address the issues of concern. Only then can we weigh each against Scripture.

That said, it is not necessary to being in other views. Just state our view and explain why we believe it the best interpretation.

 

[JonC]

What does "ANE" stand for?

Ancient Near Eastern.

 

[Silverhair]

Apparently, @JonC expects anyone who states a position must immediately, at the same time, in the same sermon or in the same article, explain that there are a bunch of wrong views floating around and explain what they are and why they are wrong.

When one declares the truth from God's Word, he is not under any obligation whatsoever to explain what is wrong with every other view.

You are jumping to the assumption that the view in the OP is the correct one. Parker declared the word of God as he understood it, that does not mean that his view is the correct one.

 

[KenH]

Parker declared the word of God as he understood it, that does not mean that his view is the correct one.

I don't see you, when posting on this board, stating this or that and qualifying it by saying, "Now I may be totally wrong, but this is my view. My view might be the correct one or it may be totally wrong."

 

[Silverhair]

I don't see you, when posting on this board, stating this or that and qualifying it by saying, "Now I may be totally wrong, but this is my view. My view might be the correct one or it may be totally wrong."

I, unlike Parker, have not claimed my way is the only way. I have said that your way does not comport with scripture. I keep telling you to trust what the bible says, do you think what I am saying is wrong?

 

[KenH]

do you think what I am saying is wrong?

Yes, you don't believe that Christ fulfilled all of the conditions for God's elect to be saved. You think that Christ is a "partial" Savior and the sinner has to "finish the job."

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, you don't believe that Christ fulfilled all of the conditions for God's elect to be saved. You think that Christ is a "partial" Savior and the sinner has to "finish the job."

Note I keep telling you to trust the bible and here you are not trusting the bible.

Eph 1:13
In Him {Christ Jesus} you also trusted,
[when] after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation;
in whom {Christ Jesus} also,
[what] having believed, {the gospel message}
[what] you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, {you were saved}

The lost sinner has to respond to the gospel message and God by His grace saves those that believe.

Eph 2:8
For by grace {of God}
[what] you have been saved
[how] through faith,
and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God,

 

[AustinC]

Note I keep telling you to trust the bible and here you are not trusting the bible.

Eph 1:13
In Him {Christ Jesus} you also trusted,
[when] after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation;
in whom {Christ Jesus} also,
[what] having believed, {the gospel message}
[what] you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, {you were saved}

The lost sinner has to respond to the gospel message and God by His grace saves those that believe.

Eph 2:8
For by grace {of God}
[what] you have been saved
[how] through faith,
and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God,

Note that Ken trusts the Bible, but not your interpretation of the Bible.
*Ephesians 1:3-14*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
*Ephesians 2:1-10*
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The dead in trespasses and sins sinner will respond to God, after God makes that sinner alive with Christ. Until then the person cannot respond.
God causes. Man's response is the effect.

"But God..."

 

[Van]

There are several reasons why your interpretation is wrong. The simplest one is this. The word for sin, hamartian, is used twice in the same sentence; it would be very odd if it had two different meanings, but to say that "He has made Him who knew no sin offering to be a sin offering for us" makes no sense. If the Holy Spirit has wanted to say 'sin offering' on the second use of hamartian, He could have used prosphora peri hamartias as in Hebrews 10:18.

We have discussed this before, and you are just repeating what has already been debunked. All you seem to do is post off the shelf arguments that have been shown to be bogus.

Let me repeat: Since Jesus was the just for the unjust, he could not have been sin for sin. Please admit your view creates error.

 

[Aaron]

CEV
Christ never sinned! But God treated him as a sinner, so Christ could make us acceptable to God.
MOUNCE
He made him who knew no sin to be a sin-offering for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
NLT
For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
TLV
He made the One who knew no sin to become a sin offering on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
2Co 5:21 (NASB)
He made Him who knew no sin to be [fn]sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Footnote: Or Sin Offering.

Thus the basis of the false doctrine that Jesus was "sin" and also "just" is the majority choice of translators to perhaps unwittingly create an inconsistency in God's inspired text.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us Galatians 3:13

Does that mean He became a curse offering?

 

[Aaron]

Christians should not ridicule others for their positions.

I disagree. If the position is completely ridiculous, then ridicule is warranted and just.

 

[Aaron]

Exactly. And this is what @KenH is doing.

He is telling us that his pastors understanding on imputation IS the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm not saying his view of imputed righteousness is wrong. I am, however, saying that it is not the gospel itself.

Christians, even we'll meaning ones, often overstate their position. I pray this is what Padtor Parker and Ken have done. But I don't know that. Both could hold to "another gospel". Both could lean on their understanding of imputed righteousness as the gospel itself.

LOL. You are doing the very thing you are criticizing KenH for doing. Saying that your practice is the Christian practice, and his is not. IOW, your way is the way that glorifies God, and any other way does not. And pressed for the justification of your way, you would have to appeal to your understanding of a certain passage, and that understanding being the truth above any other, not allowing that there may be another understanding.

Smacks a bit of hypocrisy, doesn't it?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We have discussed this before, and you are just repeating what has already been debunked. All you seem to do is post off the shelf arguments that have been shown to be bogus.

It has, of course, only been debunked in your imaginaation.

Let me repeat: Since Jesus was the just for the unjust, he could not have been sin for sin. Please admit your view creates error.

Reasoning with you never does any good, but for the benefit of others, the Lord Jesus was made sin. He was not made a sinner, but all the sins of all God's elect were laid upon Him by imputation (Isaiah 53:6; 1 Peter 2:24 etc.), and His perfect righteousness and obedience is credited to us who believe (Isaiah 61:10; Romans 5:18-19).

All you seem to do is post stuff out of your own overheated imagination. Please admit that your view creates error..

 

[JonC]

I disagree. If the position is completely ridiculous, then ridicule is warranted and just.

Yet we cut you slack every time you post.

 

[JonC]

LOL. You are doing the very thing you are criticizing KenH for doing. Saying that your practice is the Christian practice, and his is not. IOW, your way is the way that glorifies God, and any other way does not. And pressed for the justification of your way, you would have to appeal to your understanding of a certain passage, and that understanding being the truth above any other, not allowing that there may be another understanding.

Smacks a bit of hypocrisy, doesn't it?

Except I am not.

I agree that the righteousness of God is imputed.

I am saying that there are other Christian interpretations that present God as just and justifier.

I am also saying that anybody who has studied theology knows this because they would have encountered several positions presenting God as just and justifier.