1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

How does the BYZANTINE TEXTFORM compare with other

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Conan, Feb 10, 2023.

  1. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    332
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,507
    Likes Received:
    63
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Interesting!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,466
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This file shows the difference between the majority Byzantine text and the Family 35 text.

    John 7:53-John 8:11(85%). Verses omited (15%)

    Byz ] F35

    7:53 επορευθη ] απηλθεν

    8:2 ηρχετο ] + προς αυτον

    8:3 εν μοιχεια ] επι μοιχεια

    καταληφθεισαν ] κατειλημμενην

    8:4 αυτω πειραζοντες ] αυτω

    αυτη η γυνη κατεληφθη ] ταυτην ευρομεν

    8:4 αυτοφορω ] αυτοφωρω

    μοιχευομενη ] μοιχευομενην

    8:5 μωσης ημιν ] ημων μωσης

    8:6 κατηγορειν ] κατηγοριαν κατ

    8:7 πρωτον ] πρωτος

    επ αυτην τον λιθον ] τον λιθον επ αυτη

    8:9 πρεσβυτερων ] + εως των εσχατων

    8:11 ο ιησους ] αυτη ο ιησους

    κρινω ] κατακρινω

    μηκετι ] απο του νυν μηκετι
     

    Attached Files:

    #3 37818, Feb 10, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    332
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,466
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,466
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    One majority text and F35 omission that does not sit well with me. 80% mss support.

    Matthew 3:11, και πυρι. 20%. I favor this reading here.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    332
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Text of the Gospels: Search results for Matthew 3:11

    From James Snapps website

    However, a special factor seems to have been in play that resulted in the loss of και πυρι in the Byzantine text-
    stream: the treatment of Matthew 3:11 in the lectionary. Matthew 3:11 was part of a prominent lection: Matthew 3:1-11 was read at Christmastime, as the lection for the first hour of the Eve of Epiphany. As the old lectionaries show, the text of Matthew 3:11, in the lection, stopped with the mention of the baptism in the Holy Spirit, without including the words “and fire.” This appears to have been a slight liturgical adjustment – probably made for two reasons: first, to focus on positive aspects of baptism, rather than on the baptism in fire which could be construed (as done by Tertullian and others) as a reference to fiery condemnation rather than to the fires of zeal and of testing, and second, to close the lection at the same point as the lection which followed it (Mark 1:1-8).

    In manuscript 1273 (the George Grey Gospels), we see a τελος symbol in the text of Matthew 3:11, instructing the lector to stop reading at exactly that point, without pronouncing και πυρι which follows the τελος symbol. It was a natural adjustment for copyists, when making continuous-text manuscripts intended to be accompanied by a lectionary-apparatus and to be used in church-services for lection-reading, to drop the και πυρι to simplify the lector’s task. Thus we see in the evidence a natural progression:
    first, the text circulated with και πυρι;
    second, the text circulated with και πυρι accompanied by a τελος symbol before και πυρι;
    [​IMG]
    MS 1273, on the last line of the page shown here,
    has a red telos-symbol between the words
    "Holy Spirit" and "and fire" in Matthew 3:11
    .
    third, και πυρι was excised in copies which were intended to be used by lectors, as a simplification; fourth, copies with the simplified text that had been intended for lectors were used as exemplars for ordinary copies
     
    #7 Conan, Feb 12, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2023
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,466
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    @Conan, your post#7 gives a reason for και πυρι omission from Matthew 3:11 reading. As well as possible harmonization with the parallel gospel of Mark. Nevertheless και πυρι reading goes with Matthew 3:12, a reading Mark doesn't have. We know from Luke that John did teach it. Also the oldest reading for Matthew 3:11 has it.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. Conan

    Conan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2019
    Messages:
    2,045
    Likes Received:
    332
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you for the example 37818! Do you know of any more places where the MT is wrong?
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,466
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "
    Well, in 1 Peter 2:2, ". . . As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: . . ."
    Actually the actual majority text at 65% of 1 Peter mss reads ". . . As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby into salvation: . . ." F35 has it.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
Loading...