Can You Come to Christ on Your Own Part II

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So you are just hoping that you are part of that so called elect group because in reality there is no way in which you can really be sure. You can only know for sure that you have truly been elected if you persevere all the way to the end of your life according to your theology. So the TULIP really is your problem.

I know I’m elect because the Lord told me that I am in many way’s throughout my life. Though I have been a very willful and evil man I have also been graced with blessings without measure… in short, God has been berry berry good to me! And TULIP is a wonderful pathway to scriptural realities I would have otherwise have ignored had I chose to interpret on my own.

The one who does not have spiritual life cannot have any will in spiritual things. Revelation 22:17 speaks to those of us who have been born again, who have spiritual life and a will in spiritual things. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Psalm 110:3). Only born again children of God thirst after the water of life and will desire the things of God. For example, many say "whosoever will" may believe the Gospel. But is that true? Acts 13:48 states: "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Only those who are born of the Spirit of God can believe in the things of the Spirit of God, and the Gospel is one of those things which are definitely of the Spirit of God and not of the spirit of man. So there you go.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Who said they had to keep the law? God says they have to trust in His son. You are just saying the same illogical things as Austin. Start trusting what the bible says and not what some man tells you the bible says.

Man does not and can not save himself that is just a old canard that calvinists keep throwing out when they have nothing to say.

God save those that trust in His son:
Acts of the Apostles 16:31 Believe on the Lord...you will be saved
Romans 3:21-28 righteousness, through faith in Christ
Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing word of God
Galatians 3:24 ...that we might be justified by faith
Galatians 3:26 sons of God through faith in Christ

I do find it odd that for a group that claims to believe the bible you do deny what the bible says quite a bit.

You tend to proof text allot without context…amusing

 

[Silverhair]

I know I’m elect because the Lord told me that I am in many way’s throughout my life. Though I have been a very willful and evil man I have also been graced with blessings without measure… in short, God has been berry berry good to me! And TULIP is a wonderful pathway to scriptural realities I would have otherwise have ignored had I chose to interpret on my own.

The one who does not have spiritual life cannot have any will in spiritual things. Revelation 22:17 speaks to those of us who have been born again, who have spiritual life and a will in spiritual things. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power" (Psalm 110:3). Only born again children of God thirst after the water of life and will desire the things of God. For example, many say "whosoever will" may believe the Gospel. But is that true? Acts 13:48 states: "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Only those who are born of the Spirit of God can believe in the things of the Spirit of God, and the Gospel is one of those things which are definitely of the Spirit of God and not of the spirit of man. So there you go.

EWF I am not questioning your faith what I am saying is that for the Calvinist, those that think that God chose them, there really is no way for them to be sure. You said yourself that the TULIP was a pathway to scriptural realities but how can that be when it flies in the face of scripture.

Unconditional Election: but the bible clearly shows salvation is conditional
Acts of the Apostles 16:31 Believe on the Lord...you will be saved
Romans 3:21-28 righteousness, through faith in Christ
Romans 10:9-10 confess...believe...you will be saved
Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing word of God

Limited Atonement: Christ Jesus is the propitiation for the sins for the whole world of ungodly sinners.
1Timothy 2:6 gave Himself a ransom for all
1Timothy 4:10 savior of all men
1John 2:2 propitiation for the whole world

Irresistible Grace: not all that hear the gospel message will respond and be saved so your saying that God was disingenuous when He said He desires all to be saved
1Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved
John 12:32 will draw all men to Myself
John 3:17 that the world might be saved through Him

I agree that only those that are born again thirst for the knowledge of God but one is only born again by the grace of God after they believe. We are made in the image of God so we can know good from evil and we can hear and trust the gospel message unto salvation {Ephesians 1:13} and when we do call out to God He will save us. Romans 10:13

Why Calvinists struggle so hard understanding and accepting clear scripture is a puzzle, but they do.

 

[Silverhair]

You tend to proof text allot without context…amusing

Do you need me to provide the context for you, I can if that is necessary. I do trust that most of the people on this board can look at the context when they are questioning what I post. If I have taken verses out of context then point them out to me. If they are not out of context then why the comment on your part.

 

[AustinC]

Do you need me to provide the context for you, I can if that is necessary. I do trust that most of the people on this board can look at the context when they are questioning what I post. If I have taken verses out of context then point them out to me. If they are not out of context then why the comment on your part.

I have pointed your out of context proof texts on multiple occasions. Ephesians 1, Romans 1, Romans 3, 1 John 2, 2 Peter 3, etc, etc.

In fact, I have shown you your out of context proof texting so much that you have attempted to accuse me of quoting out of context...to which I have provided full passages that you then blow off. Honestly, you cannot be serious in your post. If you are pushed to view an entire passage in its context, your whole teaching would fall apart.

 

[Silverhair]

I have pointed your out of context proof texts on multiple occasions. Ephesians 1, Romans 1, Romans 3, 1 John 2, 2 Peter 3, etc, etc.

In fact, I have shown you your out of context proof texting so much that you have attempted to accuse me of quoting out of context...to which I have provided full passages that you then blow off. Honestly, you cannot be serious in your post. If you are pushed to view an entire passage in its context, your whole teaching would fall apart.

You keep looking at things through your calvinist lens whereas I look at scripture as it is in the bible so what you say has really to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[AustinC]

You keep looking at things through your calvinist lens whereas I look at scripture as it is in the bible so what you say has really to be taken with a grain of salt.

I look at it through scripture observation. YOU keep telling me that my observations of scripture are "calvinist" yet I simply observe what God says. You bring up calvin and no one else does. I don't think you have read any writing from calvin. I know I haven't.

So, if my observations are similar to calvins observations it must be because the Bible says what both calvin and I observe in the Bible, even though he lived 500 years ago.

 

[Silverhair]

I look at it through scripture observation. YOU keep telling me that my observations of scripture are "calvinist" yet I simply observe what God says. You bring up calvin and no one else does. I don't think you have read any writing from calvin. I know I haven't.

So, if my observations are similar to calvins observations it must be because the Bible says what both calvin and I observe in the Bible, even though he lived 500 years ago.

And Calvin got his theology from Augustine who got his from pagans so yours is just the fruit of a bad tree. As I said bad root bad tree bad fruit. Time for you to throw away your bad theology and just get bad to the bible.
Funny how Augustine and Calvin would claimed the same thing.

 

[AustinC]

And Calvin got his theology from Augustine who got his from pagans so yours is just the fruit of a bad tree. As I said bad root bad tree bad fruit. Time for you to throw away your bad theology and just get bad to the bible.
Funny how Augustine and Calvin would claimed the same thing.

Nope.
Augustine got his theology from the Bible. Calvin got his theology from the Bible. I get my theology from the Bible.
Funny how people who observe the Bible get similar observations from the Bible.

So, this is why I expect you to show your observations from the Bible passage, in context. Mostly, however, you pick a sentence (sometimes half a sentence) and then tell us God teaches something that He doesn't teach. When we look at context and at other passages that inform us more clearly, we see your interpretation of a sentence cannot be correct.

When this is shown to you, you immediately fall on calvin, rather than go back into scripture to prove your assertion. This has been your mode of operation as long as I have seen you post here on the BB.

 

[percho]

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb 9:27

Does that judgement take place while they are dead or does it require resurrection out of the dead for judgement?

What about someone who lived down the road from Abraham, that died before Abraham got around to telling him about his seed to come in whom all the peoples of the earth would be blessed?

Just wondering.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:29
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom 3:25,26

 

[percho]

Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. Isa 59:1,2


Something really needed to be done about verse 2.

Did you do it, did I do it?

 

[Silverhair]

Nope.
Augustine got his theology from the Bible. Calvin got his theology from the Bible. I get my theology from the Bible.
Funny how people who observe the Bible get similar observations from the Bible.

So, this is why I expect you to show your observations from the Bible passage, in context. Mostly, however, you pick a sentence (sometimes half a sentence) and then tell us God teaches something that He doesn't teach. When we look at context and at other passages that inform us more clearly, we see your interpretation of a sentence cannot be correct.

When this is shown to you, you immediately fall on calvin, rather than go back into scripture to prove your assertion. This has been your mode of operation as long as I have seen you post here on the BB.

Austin you still have not dealt with much of the scripture that I have posted so I really do not think you have much to say. Your denial of where Augustine & Calvin got their theology is just another indication that you do not want the truth. Do your self a favor and check out the history. I doubt you will as then your have to admit that the root of your theology is bad.

Strange you always say that what I post is wrong but you never provide any proof of your claim. Your comments are hollow.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have pointed your out of context proof texts on multiple occasions. Ephesians 1, Romans 1, Romans 3, 1 John 2, 2 Peter 3, etc, etc.

In fact, I have shown you your out of context proof texting so much that you have attempted to accuse me of quoting out of context...to which I have provided full passages that you then blow off. Honestly, you cannot be serious in your post. If you are pushed to view an entire passage in its context, your whole teaching would fall apart.

There ya go… so I’m not the only one to see it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Austin you still have not dealt with much of the scripture that I have posted so I really do not think you have much to say. Your denial of where Augustine & Calvin got their theology is just another indication that you do not want the truth. Do your self a favor and check out the history. I doubt you will as then your have to admit that the root of your theology is bad.

Strange you always say that what I post is wrong but you never provide any proof of your claim. Your comments are hollow.

Note, Martin Luther was an Augustine priest at one time.

 

[JD731]

This is a continuation of "part I"
Can You Come to Christ on Your Own

FYI - the orginial thread was started by DaveXR650

A more scriptural rendering of the OP would be, "must you come to Christ on your own."

Paul, the great apostle who was specially chosen by God in 37/38 AD to be the apostle to gentiles and to write the theology of the church of Jesus Christ in his 13 letters and remains the authority for us in this very day, some 2000 years later, said the following words about his mission;

Acts 2017 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

A man is responsible for processing the information he receives and acting on it, and all men who hears the gospel of Jesus Christ do act on it by believing in Jesus Christ sacrifice to save them and repenting of the sins toward God, the judge of all the earth, who alone has the power to forgive them because of Christ and what he did for us, or not repenting and believing. It was sins against God that caused us to need a savior and believing in the work of Jesus Christ without repenting toward God is not saving faith. One must believe God.

Here is a example of some believing God and some not believing God.

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 ¶ And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33 So Paul departed from among them.
34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

We believe in "personal" salvation and that each man who is ever saved must deal with his sin problem and accept God's proclaimed remedy for it, which is the cross of Jesus Christ. If anyone has heard the wonderful gospel of God, and the equally wonderful gospel of Jesus Christ, then he has personally witnessed the grace of God whether or not he has received it.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[AustinC]

Austin you still have not dealt with much of the scripture that I have posted so I really do not think you have much to say. Your denial of where Augustine & Calvin got their theology is just another indication that you do not want the truth. Do your self a favor and check out the history. I doubt you will as then your have to admit that the root of your theology is bad.

Strange you always say that what I post is wrong but you never provide any proof of your claim. Your comments are hollow.

Let's look at any passage and the corresponding passages that help us understand what God is saying. I leave the passage for you to pick. I've done this before with you, but we can do it again so others can see how you process the Bible and how I process the Bible. No ghosts allowed. Just observation of the Bible.

Go ahead. Pick the passage.

 

[AustinC]

Is Paul telling the Elders at Ephesus that they came to Christ on their own?

*Acts 20:15-32*
And sailing from there we came the following day opposite Chios; the next day we touched at Samos; and the day after that we went to Miletus. For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he might not have to spend time in Asia, for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost. Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him. And when they came to him, he said to them: “You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia, serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews; how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish every one with tears. And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified."

Is Paul telling the people in Athens, at the Areopagus, that they can come to God on their own?

*Acts 17:22-34*

So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for “‘In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Do men come to God on their own?
What does the text tell us?
I observe that men do come to God. But do they come of their own volition or by God causing them to come. I believe these passages show us that we come because God causes people to come to Him by His appointment.

 

[Silverhair]

Note, Martin Luther was an Augustine priest at one time.

Yes I was aware of that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes I was aware of that.

Maybe you should add him to your list

 

[Silverhair]

Maybe you should add him to your list

What list would that be?