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Are forms other than Calvinism & Arminanism debate form to be C & A debate?
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The Devil has everyone in slavery. It happened in the Garden when Adam broke the Covenant. But for the grace of God, we die enslaved to sin.
God, is not obligated to save any from their slavery. Do you blame God for not saving every person who is enslaved in sin?
*Romans 6:20-23*
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Silverhair
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DaveXR650
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There's not really that much difference. When I was in Campus Crusade we'd go up to people and say "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life". Now that I'm reformed I say "Most likely God hates you so don't even think you can come on your own". I have noticed that I'm having a little more difficulty in connecting with people but I figure that's just the times we live in.
Hi Dave,
I don’t get mad because I disagree with Calvinism or Reformed Theology, if you prefer that term. There’s no reason for anger. If a Calvinist is saved, I rejoice that he is. If he can reach other lost persons through Calvinism, I’m glad, even though I believe Calvinism is greatly in error.
I don’t believe Arminianism, either, though of course you would say otherwise. I believe a straightforward reading of Scripture, such as John 3:16, Acts 2:21, and Acts 16:31. THAT is what we ought to be preaching. “You’re a sinner; you’re headed to hell; you need a Saviour; Christ is the ONLY Saviour!” That’s the Gospel, not “I don’t know if you can be saved—maybe God foreordained you to hell ten thousand years ago, too bad for you but it brings glory to God.” No, the Cross of Christ brings God glory because it saves lost people.
I believe God said what He meant and meant what He said, but that Calvinists turn God’s Word upside down and backward. They try their best to “figure out” every last detail; they try to negate Deuteronomy 29:29. I don’t. I accept there are some things we’ll not know until Heaven. Therefore I read it as written. All the Father gives to Christ shall come to Him, BUT—it also says he that comes to Me I will in no wise cast out.
The reasons I rarely show up here is (one) I’m looking for Christian fellowship but I’ve no interest arguing Calvinism every time AND (two) I dislike getting onto a thread and wanting to comment, only to find the last post says, “This thread will be closed such and such a time”, so I’m too late. If a thread is going to be closed, and no one can comment, just DELETE IT so no one is hooked into reading it and wanting to comment and can’t. That’s frustrating. Just delete it or leave it open forever.
I’m on a site with atheists and God-haters and one far left supposed “Christian” and I can comment on a thread months old and resurrect that thread. That’s how a site should be.
I will probably unjoin mainly because of the second reason above and partly because 500 years of arguing the philosophy of an evil old man causes division among Christians, not unity, and none can convince others and it’s not necessary.
Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief—all we like sheep have gone astray—everyone is born a sinner, so everyone is eligible for salvation, but men refuse the light and love the darkness because their deeds are evil, thus they are responsible, but Calvin makes God responsible though he denies it. The Westminster Confession makes God responsible for sin, too, though it also attempts to deny it.
If you read it all, thank you. If not, just pretend someone closed the thread. [emoji52]
Silverhair
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Self deprecating humor. Got to love it. Me thinks you need to refine your approach just a bit there Dave.
The C vs A is in the "Other Christian Denominations" thread.
Silverhair
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I have found the Calvinist writings to be so helpful to me going back to when I found Bridges "Pursuit of Holiness" on a paperback bookshelf at a YMCA lobby, when I was a college student. I love the writings and sermons. I think that if you feel it's important to come out with a systematic layout of theology the WCF and even better, the London Baptist 1689 Confession are masterful works. The Puritans (who mostly,not all) were Calvinists and have a depth in their literature that is in a class by itself.
However; you guys on here have no obligation to go with the Calvinistic system at all. I wouldn't let any Calvinist bully you around on this board or anywhere else. There are logical flaws in it and anyone who tells you any different is full of beans. But I think that applies to everything except complete Pelagianism or hyper-Calvinism, both of which are easy logically, but wrong. The people on this board who seem to be the nastiest do seem to be Calvinists though, and I'm not sure why. I have noticed that the arguments against Calvinism are getting more sophisticated than they were 20 years ago when a smart aleck internet Calvinist could befuddle his fundamentalist pastor with a few verses.
Alan Gross
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What is one error, or more, do I have, as an "adherent", you are talking about?
God hates sin.
God COMMANDS sinners to Repent of their sin.
To tell everyone "God Loves you" is simply a lie.
So is, He "has a wonderful plan for your life"."
We know better than to say that.
Calvin teaches that all men, saved or lost, still have a sin-cursed, flesh, Nature they try to reason with.
You can't reason that God Created man and allowed him to become a sinner, does not make God responsible for their sin, with the carnal mind, logically, without bowing to the Lordship of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit of God.
Now there is an idea.
Tell Him, you don't want to continue being wrong, if you are, if that is possible.
I don't see that in God's Revealed Word, to Mankind, the Bible that you talk about.
It's called, "start a new thread".
Thread Closures
If God had not Chosen some to Salvation, as He and The Doctrines of Grace say, then All Would Go To Hell.
I think The Doctrines of Grace and Calvin give Him Glory and Praise for that, in God's Eternal Plan of Salvation and for the Command and opportunity to tell others.
"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." I Corinthians 9:22.
The way they are saved is to be Commanded to Repent of their sins and believe the Gospel, which includes Jesus Dying as the result of sins being placed upon Him.
Are they sinners, with sin that Offends God? Do they know there is none good and they are Condemned, already?
If they are given an "appeal", “You’re a sinner; you’re headed to hell; you need a Saviour; Christ is the ONLY Saviour!”, their flesh doesn't know it's Condemned by their sin, even though you "tell them."
The Holy Spirit must be allowed to use the Word to CONVICT them of being sinners that then needs a SAVIOR.
Otherwise, as much as they naturally hate God, they might "accept" and "decide", or "choose" to think they are taking an escape from Hell, and remain deceived and lost in their sins.
"Bring forth fruit met for Repentance."
They must be Born Again.
It is serious business for them.
Their "experience" needs to be "Wrought of God" and deserves examination, by a child of God.
Do they now have a change of heart that gives them an appetite for "the Bible" and can they be taught Spiritual food?
Lost people and those in our pews that are lost and lost "preachers" can't.
That explains why they don't know anything, if if you put it in their lap.
That is our Eternal concern.
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DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Self deprecating humor. Got to love it. Me thinks you need to refine your approach just a bit there Dave.
I think you might be the only one that "got it". Sheez.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You have to remember, Dave, that most calvinists have no since of humor. God determined not to give them one.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Just one question for you @Alan Gross. How do you know you are saved? Since you had nothing to do with it you may have been deceived as Calvin said.
I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election; and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith, is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. Bk 3 Chp 2 A sec 11
We may add, that the reprobate never have any other than a confused sense of grace, laying hold of the shadow rather than the substance... Bk 3 Chp 2 A sec 11
There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent Bk 3 Chp 2 A sec 11
So it would seem that you have to hope that you were actually part of your "elect" although you can never really know can you. You have to look to your works as proof, or at least they do prove it. So calvinism really is a faith built on works.
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