Featured The Cross

If it was the first. (1. For ALL the sins of ALL men). That is not Owen's belief. He is setting up the argument that those who take the first position cannot use that argument. Owen believed the second. (2. All the sins of some men). And he, himself does not make that argument because he's not arguing for universalism. He clearly and repeatedly taught that he believed Christ died for all the sins of some men. The "elect". The argument that unbelief itself would thus have been forgiven doesn't apply to Owen's position for 2 reasons. One, he was not a universalist. Two, he believed and taught that those whose sins were atoned for were the same people who God infallibly brought to repentance and faith at the proper time, without exception. Thus none of the ones in 2. (Owen's position) would end up in final unbelief.

In post 33 I outlined a view that allows you to have a universal atonement yet a specific application only to those who believe. Go with that if you want. I am sure, and anyone else who has taken the time to try to read Owen on the atonement can tell you this, - if you get into it with Owen, based on the idea of sins actually being paid for sin by sin and individual by individual as Christ's blood was shed then you have to become a Calvinist after reading "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ". The argument is that powerful.

I suppose you could also take a view of the atonement that does not involve penal substitution and you could thus get around Owen.

 

Look Austin, I have decided that it is time to obey Romans 16:17 and other passages that instruct me to “mark them that cause offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them”. Hint,hint,hint

 

You are very welcome brother

 

The book I recommended to you, Doctrines of Grace indicated that the Grace element of Tulip (namely the I in irresistible Grace) is Irresistible and all true Calvinists believe in the DOG. So am I missing something?

 

I am aware of the meaning of the DOG and the TULIP. I am not convinced that grace is irresistible. Silverhair and I go round and round with this and I believe outside grace in the form of the Holy Spirit is completely essential in that no one will ever be saved without direct working of the Holy Spirit upon the individual. And I use the illustration that if you help a child up the steps and he would not have made it at all without the help then it is "effectual". Whereas, if I noticed you dropped your groceries and I helped you pick them up it would be nice, but you would have done it anyway, on your own, without my help so that was not effectual.

The problem I have with grace being irresistible is that there is a lot of evidence from what you see in life and what good Calvinist preachers preach and scriptures that warn in such a way that it seems to me reasonable that in spite of the work of the HS it may be possible, and it may be in the scope of God's will that a person can mess up and frankly, blow it. The other issue is that I believe that from the first conviction and enlightenment you have the HS involved. I am not sure that if the scriptures mean what they say and that the HS is really bringing people along and then for only sovereign reasons the HS stops gracious influences that we should not put the blame where it belongs - on the person's hardness or obstinance. I don't honestly know what happens but I am not sure enough of myself to just blurt out that "Well in that case are you saying that God failed?" It could well be that the interaction between the Holy Spirit and our wills is more complex than an acronym or a confession can explain. I understand I could be mixing up common grace and effectual grace but that's really my point. The WCF is not clear on it either and when a good Calvinist preaches that you don't want to trifle or delay a calling or a conviction I figure the warning is really to you. If it was all just a matter of irresistible grace then you would not give any admonition or warning in your preaching - and in fact some branches of Calvinism don't think you should do that.

 

I see. You actually believe Christ would die for someone who is already doomed, like Pharaoh. That is nonsensical as well as unscriptural. You are letting your preconceived beliefs interpret the Bible for you. I'm not going to discuss this anymore with you. There is no point.

 

How is what I said an insult? I point out your errant theology and what do you do, respond with laughable comments. You say you trust the bible but you deny what the bible clearly states. Calvinist seem to always get insulted when the truth of scripture shows their theology for what it is, a Gnostic philosophy that has it roots in the Manichaeism and Neoplatonism that Augustine brought into the church and which Calvin and his heirs have carried through to this day.

Deal with what I had posted. I note that you did not respond to the scripture I included, but that is typical of more than one calvinist on this board.

 

I did see what you wrote regarding Ephesians but the thread was closed by that time. I even tried to PM you but that was a no go. You did not disappoint in what you wrote. As I expected your whole response was done through your Calvinist glasses rather than just go with what the text says.

Since you will continue to whine about me not responding to your post I will put it here.


"Blessings in Christ" passage
Eph_1:1-14 is a passage that speaks about the blessings that believers in Jesus Christ have received from God.

Verse 1: “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:”
Paul identifies himself as the author of the letter and addresses the letter to the "saints who are in Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus." The word "saints" refers to all Christians. The phrase "faithful in Christ Jesus" emphasizes the importance of faith in Jesus as the foundation of the Christian life.
Verse 2: “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
A greeting from Paul that includes a prayer for the recipients of the letter. Paul prays that they will experience "grace and peace" from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Verse 3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,"
Paul begins this passage with a doxology, praising God for the blessings that believers have received in Christ. He notes that these blessings are not merely material, but rather "spiritual" in nature, and come from "heavenly places." Only those that are united to Christ Jesus by faith will receive these blessings.
Verse 4: "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"
Paul now begins to describe the specific blessings and emphasizes that God chose believers {Eph_1:1} in Christ before the foundation of the world. This is a crucial statement that points to the fact that God's plan of salvation is not an afterthought, but was determined by Him from eternity past. This act of choosing is grounded in God's grace and is not based on works or good deeds that believers have done. {Eph_2:8} Rather, it is solely based on God's love and mercy. The purpose of this choice was that we should be holy and blameless before Him.
Verse 5: "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,"
Paul continues to describe the blessings of believers, noting that God predestined us for adoption as his sons and daughters through Jesus Christ. This means that God planned in advance to make believers his children through their faith in Christ. This adoption was according to God's will, and is a result of his grace and mercy.
Verse 6: "to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."
The ultimate purpose of God's choosing and predestining us for adoption is to bring praise and glory to God's grace. This grace is the means by which God has blessed us in Christ.
Verse 7: "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace"
The next blessing that Paul mentions is redemption through the blood of Christ, which is the means by which our sins are forgiven. This redemption is made possible by the riches of God's grace.
Verse 8: "which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight"
This grace has been given to us in all wisdom and insight, so that we might understand the depth of God's love for us.
Verse 9: "He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him"
One of the ways that God has shown us his grace is by making known to us the mystery of his will, which was set forth in Christ. This mystery was hidden from previous generations, but has been revealed to us through the gospel.
Verse 10: "with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him"
The purpose of God's plan is to unite all things in Christ, both in heaven and on earth. This plan will come to completion in the fullness of time.
Verse 11: "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,"
Another blessing that believers have received in Christ is an inheritance, which we have obtained because we were predestined according to God's purpose. God is the one who works all things according to the counsel of his will.
Verse 12: "to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory."
The ultimate purpose of God's plan, including the predestination of believers and the granting of an inheritance, is so that those who hope in Christ might bring praise and glory to God. This is a recurring theme in the passage, highlighting the ultimate goal of all that God has done for believers in Christ.
Verse 13: "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Paul now addresses the way and means of salvation, noting that they too have received the blessings in Christ when they heard the gospel and believed in Jesus. As a result of this faith, they were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
Verse 14: "who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."
The Holy Spirit is not only a seal of our faith, but is also a guarantee of our inheritance. In other words, the Holy Spirit is a down payment or deposit on the blessings that we will receive in the future. Once again, the ultimate purpose of all of these blessings is to bring praise and glory to God.

In summary, while our faith is an essential component of our salvation, it is not the basis for our election. We are chosen by God based on His grace and mercy, and our faith in Christ is the means by which we receive the salvation that God has offered to us.
Paul repeatedly emphasizes that these blessings are the result of God's grace and are intended to bring praise and glory to God. The passage thus serves as a powerful reminder of the incredible love and grace that God has shown us in Christ.

 

Like Judas, Luke 22:20-2, ". . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."

 

I see that you just continue to deny scripture and instead cling to your Calvinist philosophy.

Perhaps you can show me what is un-scriptural about about these passages

Do you not believe what the bible say?
Hebrews 2:9 ...should taste death for every man.
1 John 2:2 propitiation for the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:10 savior of all men.

 

LOL, you can't even quote full sentences in the Bible. Even Muslims quote more scripture than you, Sliverhair.
You prove my point that you couldn't care less about the whole word of God, just your half sentences that you manipulate to fit your humanist views.

 

This “God in Christ reconciling” holds out an effectual work of reconciliation. Now, this must be either an absolute reconciliation or a conditional reconciliation.If it is absolute, then why are not all actually and absolutely reconciled, pardoned, and justified?If it is conditional, then,First, how can a conditional reconciliation be reconciled with what is actual?Secondly, why is no condition mentioned here?Thirdly, what is that condition? Is it faith and believing? Then the sense of the words must be either, first, “God was in Christ reconciling a believing world to himself,” in which case there is no need, for believers are reconciled; or, secondly, “God was in Christ reconciling an unbelieving world to himself, on condition that it believes;” that is, on condition that it is not unbelieving; that is, on condition that it is reconciled. Is this the mind of the Holy Spirit?Fourthly, if this reconciliation of the world consists (as it does) in a non-imputation of sin, then this is either a non-imputation of all their sins, or only of some sins. If it is only of some, then Christ saves only from some sins. If it is of all sins, then it is of unbelief also, or else unbelief is no sin; if that were true, then all the men in the world must be saved, because their unbelief is pardoned. The world here, then, is only the world of blessed, pardoned believers, who are “made the righteousness of God in Christ.” (John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, Book 4, ch 3)

This quote is in reference to 2 Corinthians 5:19 but you need to read it in context {2 Co 5:17-21} to get the true understanding which does not fit with Owen’s world = elect view. [see at end]

When you couple this quote, above, with Owen’s prior comment, below:

If it was for the second, which is what we affirm, that Christ in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world.

We see that Owen did indeed think that the sin of unbelief for the “elect” was covered at the atonement. Where he gets that idea is only from outside the bible. He is reading his theology into the text.


2 Corinthians 5:17-21

The Atonement of Christ paid for the sins of the whole world, but the individual must appropriate that payment through faith. (2Co_2:17)
Those that have been reconciled to the Father by faith in the Son are called the elect. (2Co_5:18) All the world could be reconciled to God by faith in the Son (2Co_5:19), but it is only those that trust in the Son that will be reconciled to the Father. (2Co_5:20) Because we are in Christ by faith all Christians have the privilege and duty to proclaim the message in Christ’s behalf and point sinners to the cross where redemption full and free is offered to all that they might be saved (2Co_5:21)

The death of Christ pays for all the sins of all people. But not one individual has his own account settled until he believes. If he never believes, then even though the price has been fully paid, his sins will not be forgiven.

 

Austin are you so desperate to disagree with whatever I post that you have to make such dumb comments. You did note the links or do you not understand what they are for.

I note that you did not respond to the scriptures. You do realize that it is not the quantity but rather the quality of the text that is posted. What I posted shows that the atonement was for all mankind not just your limited select group that you and EWF and other Calvinists have attempted to foist off on this board.

You continue to deny clear scripture and hold to your twisted rendition of verses.

Why do you not believe what the bible say?
Hebrews 2:9 ...should taste death for every man.
1 John 2:2 propitiation for the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:10 savior of all men.

 

You have not responded to any of the scripture that Austin and I have posted so quit playing your games…. In any event, I’m done with you. Matthew 10:14

 

Repeat after me "only the world of blessed, pardoned BELIEVERS". No where does Owen suggest as HIS position, that anyone persisting in unbelief will be saved. All you are doing is showing why most people should not try to read Owen.

 

When Owen said that Christ paid for the sins of people he meant that the sins were actually atoned for at the time of Jesus's death. He does not allow for any potential or hypothetical aspect of it. What Owen did not do was take a logical human leap with this and then say that the elect were always saved and coming to faith was just realizing that you had been justified. That's why the Primitive Baptists and hyper-Calvinists don't like him. He believed that we do live in time and it is real. There will come a time in each persons life where they will have to decide to come to Christ, repent of their sins and be born again. Or they will refuse. Owen had a very high view of God's sovereignty in doing this. And only the elect will do this, because God gives them repentance and faith but up until the time they do this they are lost. It is similar to what you say above except:
You insist that God leave more of a veto power on the person. There is some scriptural evidence of this being true. There are
also scriptures that suggest otherwise. You believe that this plan is in place and it's up to you to respond or not. Owen did not
believe that it works that way but God brings it all about. Owen believed that ordinary means were used by God to
accomplish his will in salvation and the ordinary mental faculties of the mind were also used. This is why Owen could use
preaching and warnings and threats to bring about what God had fore ordained.

 

Share the passages of your snippets and exegete them for us. I did that for Ephesians 1 and you went ghost mode and silent when I did.
So, be a good chap and exegete the passages around you snippet of a sentence. Otherwise, you show me that you don't take God's word seriously.

 

So sorry did I miss the post where you responded to the scriptures I posted? You and Austin do love to play the victim don't you. When anyone provides scripture that bursts your Calvinist bubble you just cry foul.

Since you do not wish to engage is constructive dialogue we can end on a civil note. Have a good day.

 

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace (between God and man, all of whom are alienated from God by sin) through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Peace is what atonement is.

The fact that Jesus Christ died on the cross did not save anyone. His dying reconciled two parties who were at enmity with one another so they can fellowship in peace between them. We are plainly told that and I do not know why people cannot believe it. It is a simple message.

Sin is what separates and alienates men from God and all are sinners, no exceptions. God requires death because there is no remedy and once a man has sinned one time he is guilty without any recourse and he has no way to get God because has said the soul that sinneth it shall die. The death he speaks of is eternal separation of the soul from God in the lake of fire, called the second death, the first death being physical, separation of the soul and the body.

But, if God were inclined to find a way to put sin away where he could no longer see any sin in men while at the same time punishing sin with it's demand of death, then he could save men from eternal death and they could abide with him forever.

He found a way. Praise God for that. He would become a man and willingly subject himself to all his laws, and even the weakness of the flesh, and then die as a substitute for all sinners, and then overcome death with life when he would rise from the dead bodily by the power of the Spirit of God.

No one is ever going to say that if there are 12 Calvinists in the room who teach their own particular redemption through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, to the exclusion of others, that Jesus had to die 12 times, once each for the 12 Calvinists in the room. That would be silly. That did not happen. Jesus Christ died once. One time on the cross for the sins of the whole world. He died on the cross to put away sins from humanity, all of whom were guilty of sinning.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (2889): but now once in the end of the world (165) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

It is not said that he sacrificed himself to put away your sin, or just the sins of the 12 Calvinists in the room, but it says he sacrificed himself to put away sin. Sin is a noun. It is a thing. He put sin away and this is how he reconciled the whole world to God. He actually and trully suffered death for the sins of the whole world. The wrath of God, the penalty of sin itself, was spent on Jesus Christ as he hanged on that cross, and Jesus Christ shed his blood, the life of the flesh, and he was separated from God when the Spirit of God forsook him on that tree.

Here is what God plainly had his apostles to say;
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

God made Jesus Christ the personification of sin and punished him accordingly by pouring out all the wrath for all mankind upon him so he can have a way to make all sinners, without exception, righteous, by covering them with his blood. He no longer is alienated from sinners because he cannot see sin through the blood of Jesus Christ and he is not imputing personal sins to sinners while they live on this earth.

However, reconciliation is between two parties. To say that there are no sinners in the world because Jesus in his death has reconciled God to sinners and taken sin away does not mean that sinners are reconciled to God. Sinners must hear and know and understand that God has done this for them. Their conscience is going to condemn them as sinners but it is not going to inform them that Jesus Christ has paid their sin debt. God is going to send preachers to do that, and the preacher cannot preach to any sinner that cannot be reconciled to God by repenting of his sins and believing in the name of Jesus Christ as the only one and the only way for this reconciliation to be possible.

While He 9:26 says sin is put away by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and there is no judgement while we live, Verse 27 says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

Men will be judged as sinners if they are never reconciled to God while they live.

I am not guessing about these things. I will quote my source.

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation)

To receive the grace of God in vain is to hear it and then not believe it and receive it and be reconciled to God in the name of Jesus Christ.

Thank God for the cross of our savior, Jesus Christ!

 

You are avoiding the obvious in what Owen said. I quoted him and you just see what you want. If all the sins of your so called elect are forgiven at the cross as Owen says and he says that unbelief is a sin that logically means that unbelief is forgiven and this prior to them even hearing about Christ Jesus. So logically their unbelief will not stop them from being saved as according to Owen it has already been paid for.

You are only seeing what you want to see and are denying what Owen has actually said.

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1} All the sins of all men
2} All the sins of some men, or
3} Some of the sins of all men
{QUESTION: why does {2} require that it only apply to the Calvinist version of elect as Owen would suppose}

"If it was for the second, which is what we affirm, that Christ in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world."..."But this unbelief, is it a sin or not? If not, why should they be punished for it? If it is, then Christ either underwent the punishment for it, or he did not. If he did, then why should that sin keep them from partaking of the fruit of his death more than their other sins for which he died? If he did not undergo the punishment for it, then he did not die for all their sins"
(John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, Book 3, ch 3)

Parsing out what Owen is saying,
But this unbelief, is it a sin or not? If [unbelief is] not [a sin], why should [unbelievers] be punished for it? … If [Christ did die for the sin of unbelief], then why [would the sin of unbelief] hinder [the unbelievers from being saved any] more than their other sins for which [Christ Jesus died]?

If it is of all sins, then it is of unbelief also, or else unbelief is no sin; if that were true, then all the men in the world must be saved,because their unbelief is pardoned. The world here, then, is only the world of blessed, pardoned believers, who are “made the righteousness of God in Christ.”(John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, Book 4, ch 3)

Owen is saying that unbelief, which is a sin, is not a hinderance to salvation, well at least for his "elect". But while refusal to believe is indeed a sin, the reason it keeps one from salvation is not due to it being a sin, but because unbelief, by definition, precludes belief in Christ, without which no one can be saved (Hebrews 11:6).

Answer me this Dave. Did Owen think that all could be saved or only those that were chosen before the foundation of the world, "the elect" could be saved?