Is Everything Predestined?

[Van]

Hyper-Calvinists openly assert everything is predestine. Boettner says everything is predestined. But is that Biblical.

No. This thread is not about Omniscience, no matter how it is defined. According to Arminianism, God knowing the future exhaustively does not predestine it. We must set aside this issue and stick with the scope of predestination.

If everything is predestined, that is Closed Theology and God is the Author of Sin, just as Hyper-Calvinism claims

If everything is not predestined, that is Open Theology to a limited degree, and God knowing the future exhaustively does not cause everything to be predestined according to Arminianism and all but the Hyper Calvinists.

Therefore all Arminians and most Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree as they both agree God is not the author of sin.

 

[DaveXR650]

What a lot of Calvinists do is say that God HAS predetermined everything but in a different sense than a hyper-Calvinist. What they mean is that God knows everything that is going to happen. And he is powerful enough that he either wants it to happen that way or if he doesn't really like the way something is going to turn out he has at least in his wisdom decided to allow it to happen. Thus, God is not the author or direct cause of all things - but if they happen then he did at least allow it and it probably does fit into a divine plan.

A lot of open theists say that God truly does not know what a free will creature is going to do because it logically is impossible to know what someone is truly going to do if they truly have absolute sovereignty to choose a different path at any time.

The charge that some Calvinists do make God the author of sin is a true charge. One other thing. The idea that this kind of predetermining is unheard of before the Reformation is false. I was reading a church father the other day and he said not to complain when a bad thing happens to you because it was sent by God as all things are. I find that almost universal in what little reading I have done of ancient writers. But I admit, I also find that they all believe in striving to do right and please God and seem to believe they have the will to do it.

 

[kyredneck]

'Predestine' is found only four times in the scriptures and is ALWAYS in reference to God choosing individuals for a people for His own possession, NOT to events.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1

 

[AustinC]

Is God Sovereign? If He is, then everything is predestined.

Unlike the atheistic determinist who sees the laws of nature dictating the exact movements of molecules via an evolutionary track caused by nothing, the Christian realizes that the God of Creation has very carefully determined his purpose for His glory. He lovingly reveals his plan in His holy word. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will see and hear Him. Those who are blind will not.
We, who see and hear, are called by God to preach so that those who are given eyes to see and ears to hear will, in fact see and hear, just as we do.

I know this message is offensive to the pride of men who desperately want to be in control. For those whom God's Sovereignty is revolting, I can only say, "God's perfect care over His children is the most comforting thing you can ever know. That you are always in the palm of your Father's hand and under the shelter of His wings is a blessed assurance in these times of perseverance."

Peace

 

[Silverhair]

'Predestine' is found only four times in the scriptures and is ALWAYS in reference to God choosing individuals for a people for His own possession, NOT to events.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1


What I have highlighted in blue tell a different story KY.

Being conformed to Christs image, being justified, being glorified, being adopted, gaining an inheritance. God predestines those that trust in His son to salvation which also happens to be an event.

 

[Silverhair]

Is God Sovereign? If He is, then everything is predestined.

So you have God predestining all the evil in the world, all the hate, all the suffering. Your view of the sovereignty of God is distorted.

 

[AustinC]

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1


What I have highlighted in blue tell a different story KY.

Being conformed to Christs image, being justified, being glorified, being adopted, gaining an inheritance. God predestines those that trust in His son to salvation which also happens to be an event.

Sliverhair, please clarify.
Are you stating that God predestines nothing, until someone chooses to believe?

 

[kyredneck]

What I have highlighted in blue tell a different story KY.

...only in your synergistic/free-willer/anti-Sovereign Grace mind...

 

[kyredneck]

God is NOT the author of sin, he is NEVER the cause of sin:

And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind. Jer 7:31

and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Jer 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jer 32:35

 

[Silverhair]

Sliverhair, please clarify.
Are you stating that God predestines nothing, until someone chooses to believe?

God has chosen to only do these things for those that trust in the Son. If one does not trust in the Son why would you expect them to be conformed to Christs image, be justified, be glorified, be adopted, or gain an inheritance? Those all come about because one has trusted in His son.

 

[Silverhair]

...only in your synergistic/free-willer/anti-Sovereign Grace mind...

Come on KY tell me what you really think.

 

[Silverhair]

God is NOT the author of sin, he is NEVER the cause of sin:

And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind. Jer 7:31

and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Jer 19:5

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jer 32:35

So in other words man has a free will.

 

[JonC]

Yes, everything is predestined (something Calvinists and many non-Calvinists agree on). It has nothing to do with free-will. I know the thread says this isn't about omniscience, but then the title isn't exactly accurate. It should read "did God decree everything?" (But even here it can be argued He did via creation).

 

[AustinC]

If God does not predestined, then we have all the right to be filled with anxiety at every turn. But, as today's Solid Joy devotional states, God cares for us and tells us to cast our cares upon Him. Why would anyone do this if God was clueless about the events surrounding us?

Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you. (1 Peter 5:6–7)

Why is anxiety about the future a form of pride?

God’s answer would sound something like this (paraphrasing Isaiah 51:12):

I — the Lord, your Maker — I am he who comforts you, who promises to take care of you; and those who threaten you are mere men who die. So, your fear must mean that you do not trust me — and even though you are not sure that your own resources will take care of you, yet you opt for fragile self-reliance, rather than faith in my future grace. So, all your trembling — weak as it is — reveals pride.

The remedy? Turn from self-reliance to God-reliance, and put your faith in the all-sufficient power of the promise of his future grace.

You can see that anxiety is a form of pride in 1 Peter 5:6–7. Notice the grammatical connection between the verses. “Humble yourselves . . . under the mighty hand of God . . . [now, verse 7] casting all your anxieties on him.” Verse 7 is not a new sentence. It’s a subordinate clause. It starts with a participle: “Humble yourselves . . . [by] casting all your anxieties on him.”

This means that casting your anxieties on God is a way of humbling yourself under God’s mighty hand. It’s like saying, “Eat politely . . . chewing with your mouth shut.” Or, “Drive carefully . . . keeping your eyes on the road.” Or, “Be generous . . . inviting someone over on Thanksgiving.” Or, “Humble yourselves . . . casting your fears on God.”

One way to humble ourselves is to cast all our anxieties on God. Which means that one hindrance to casting your anxieties on God is pride. Which means that undue worry is a form of pride. No matter how weak it looks or feels.

Now, why is casting our anxieties on the Lord the opposite of pride? Because pride does not like to admit that it has any anxieties. Or that we can’t take care of them ourselves. And if pride has to admit that its fears are unmanagable, it still does not like to admit that the remedy might be trusting someone else who is wiser and stronger.

In other words, pride is a form of unbelief and does not like to trust in God for his future grace. Faith, on the other hand, admits the need for help. Pride won’t. Faith banks on God to give help. Pride won’t. Faith casts anxieties on God. Pride won’t.

Therefore, the way to battle the unbelief of pride is to admit freely that you have anxieties, and to cherish the promise of future grace in the words, “He cares for you.” And then unload your fears onto his strong shoulders.

God Cares for You

 

[AustinC]

God has chosen to only do these things for those that trust in the Son. If one does not trust in the Son why would you expect them to be conformed to Christs image, be justified, be glorified, be adopted, or gain an inheritance? Those all come about because one has trusted in His son.

So God only predestines those who predestinate themselves by believing. Is that an accurate summary of your view?

 

[Van]

"Thus, God is not the author or direct cause of all things - but if they happen then he did at least allow it and it probably does fit into a divine plan."

Spot on, God is Sovereign in that He either causes or allows all things. This view is not, repeat, is not, the view of Reformed Soteriolgy. But it is sound Biblical Doctrine. And of course, it is Open Theology 101.

Another point is "God's plan." If God's plan is to preclude autonomous choices for salvation via Total Spiritual Inability, then "Soul freedom" is wrong. However, if God's plan is to allow most individuals to make autonomous choices concerning salvation, via Limited Spiritual Ability, then "Soul Freedom" is sound doctrine.

 

[Van]

'Predestine' is found only four times in the scriptures and is ALWAYS in reference to God choosing individuals for a people for His own possession, NOT to events.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Ro 8

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1

What nonsense. Romans 8:29 those to be redeemed are also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, an event!
Romans 8:30 again teaches that those redeemed and predestined have also been called (transferred into) Christ where they undergo the washing of regeneration resulting in justification and spiritual glorification.

And those spiritually redeemed by being transferred into Christ, after being regenerated, and indwelt with the Spirit pledging our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. And this bodily redemption is referred to as our "inheritance in Ephesians 1:11-14.

 

[Silverhair]

So God only predestines those who predestinate themselves by believing. Is that an accurate summary of your view?

Do you actually read my post or do you just spout the same drivel. Take off you silly glasses for a while and ask logical questions then perhaps we can have a real conversation.

 

[AustinC]

Do you actually read my post or do you just spout the same drivel. Take off you silly glasses for a while and ask logical questions then perhaps we can have a real conversation.

I absolutely read it. My question is still the same.
I note that you are simply refusing to respond directly to questions.
You wrote:
"God has chosen to only do these things for those that trust in the Son."

I asked this question:
"So God only predestines those who predestinate themselves by believing. Is that an accurate summary of your view?"

Sounds like you are simply doing a twist on the humanist statement " God helps those who help themselves."
You just say, "God has chosen to only do these things for those that trust in the Son."

Can you not see the comparison?

 

[Silverhair]

I absolutely read it. My question is still the same.
I note that you are simply refusing to respond directly to questions.
You wrote:
"God has chosen to only do these things for those that trust in the Son."

I asked this question:
"So God only predestines those who predestinate themselves by believing. Is that an accurate summary of your view?"

Sounds like you are simply doing a twist on the humanist statement " God helps those who help themselves."
You just say, "God has chosen to only do these things for those that trust in the Son."

Can you not see the comparison?

God has predestined that those that freely believe in His son will to be conformed to Christs image, be justified, be glorified, be adopted, and gain an inheritance. Now that should not be to hard for you to understand I hope.

Did you expect God to do those things for those that do not trust in His son?

Do you see how your comparison is lacking in logic? You want to make everything fit into your theology. You need to start trusting the bible rather than your Calvinism.