Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I would think that @MrW is referring to post # 66. Lloyd-Jones has it backwards but he is holding to Calvinist theology.
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Seeking God?
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I would think that @MrW is referring to post # 66. Lloyd-Jones has it backwards but he is holding to Calvinist theology.
Do you have an answer to the question?
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Who causes a man to believe? Is it God or is it man?
Your open refusal to answer tells us all we need to know about your Christian humanism.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
How many times now Austin? What's that old expression " only a fool keeps asking the same question over and over expecting a different result" Are you a fool Austin?
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Lloyd-Jones is probably right but it is not as important as you think. That comes from Martyn Lloyd-Jones's sermon on John 3:1-8 called You Must Be Born Again (no. 1123). You can hear it online for free. If you listen to it you will find that if you come by faith to Christ as a sinner looking for a savior you do not need to worry that you might be trying to believe but yet are not born again. The fact that you come is proof that you have been quickened or born again. Nicodemus, in his initial encounter with Jesus did not come to him that way and thus you have that conversation about being born again. The sermon is worth listening to.
It is my opinion that some of you guys who are insisting that unsaved people are able to truly "seek" after salvation are in truth observing those who are under the conviction and influence of the Holy Spirit and may actually be born again. And of course they do find Christ, sometimes after much wrestling and starts and stops and progress and regression. What is really unfortunate is that Calvinists, in arguing the point, give the impression that God is not on your side in this, when the truth is, He is the initiator of your salvation and the only reason you are showing any interest.
If we give the impression that we as Calvinists are some kind of gatekeepers whose job is to make sure we let everyone know you can't just come to Christ - well we would be making a big mistake. Christ Himself invites you to come. I would only suggest that you do not need to defend "free will" as something sacred. Almost without exception, every mess I've ever gotten into has been the result of my free will. I imagine it's the same for you and MrW too.
God is more than the "initiator" Dave.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Yes I would agree that because of my free will I have stepped over the line more than once but it is also because of my free will that I was able to trust in Christ Jesus for my salvation. And if people were honest with themselves they would admit that also.
Yes, I was awake this morning at 3 a.m., thinking how God has blessed me so abundantly all my life, and thinking how all the troubles and pains of my life have been from either my own stupid choices or the stupid choices of others around me. I cannot blame God, only myself and others.
That makes me appreciate God’s goodness even more, and want to lean on Him for His will to be done, and quit doing mine so often. The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance. Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden had they done God’s will. He intends good to us, not evil. We are to blame, not the third article of the Westminster Confession, which truly blames God, though it pretends not.
By the way, is anyone here under 60? It seems us 60’s and 70’s and older are the only ones on these type of sites.
That makes me appreciate God’s goodness even more, and want to lean on Him for His will to be done, and quit doing mine so often. The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance. Adam and Eve would still be in the Garden had they done God’s will. He intends good to us, not evil. We are to blame, not the third article of the Westminster Confession, which truly blames God, though it pretends not.
By the way, is anyone here under 60? It seems us 60’s and 70’s and older are the only ones on these type of sites.
Thanks. This answers the question I asked.
Who causes a man to believe? Is it God or is it man?
Clearly you believe that man causes man to believe.
Of course, you deny and ignore what God says.
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
When I label you a Christian Humanist, I am not wrong.
You are right. We cannot blame God. But, God does bring to us very difficult and hard trials. Job shows us this truth. Not all the evil comes from you. There are nearly 10 billion self-centered sinners who, like you and me, are by nature feeding their flesh and clamoring to be at the top of the tower. You and I are not responsible for the terrible things that come up on us that are out of our control. When inflation rises and makes it hard for you to purchase food, clothing, and gas for the car, that isn't from you. That is from God. It is the 3rd seal to the Book of Destiny in Revelation 6:5-6.
When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!”
Yet, in everything that God brings, whether good or bad, yet we can, like Job, praise God.
He indeed works out his prophetic plan, but that does not prevent him from blessing me individually. I, and the people around me, are the ones causing the trouble for me.
His prophetic plans will proceed without the necessity of causing me problems supposedly sent from Him, because for one reason, I am insignificant to His end-times purposes. Also, myself and others cause enough problems already.
His prophetic plans will proceed without the necessity of causing me problems supposedly sent from Him, because for one reason, I am insignificant to His end-times purposes. Also, myself and others cause enough problems already.
God blessed us in both the good and the bad. Indeed, it is the trials that refine us and purify our faith. It is because God loves us that he purifies us. (Hebrews 12)
You are not insignificant to God in these end times. He calls you and I to persevere as He appoints the seals to bring troubles to this world. He has placed a mark on us as being His. That is just the opposite of being insignificant. No, we are not insignificant. We are those for whom the Lamb was Slain before the foundation of the world.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I have noticed that in the Bible you don't see this discussion happening much either way. I don't know of any situation where someone is told "I have noticed great faith but don't be thinking that's yours", or "it's good you didn't bow your knee to idols but it wasn't really you". And you don't see anyone that does something good make any mention of the fact that everyone better remember that it was them that did it, and of their own free will. When Paul said "I press on to make it my own because Christ Jesus has made me he own" he simply stated both as if everyone should immediately understand the obvious. There has been some change in our modern mindset I'm afraid.
Man, you are the Methuselah of this era...or you are living with dementia and delusional thoughts. I will go with Methuselah.
No one CAUSES a man to believe.
God sets before us good and evil, and commands us to make a choice. “As many, as received Him…”
Enjoy God and His salvation, which He so freely gives, and quit trying to analyze Him. It’s so simple. It’s unnecessary to complicate it. Love Him, worship Him, praise Him. John 14:6.
God sets before us good and evil, and commands us to make a choice. “As many, as received Him…”
Enjoy God and His salvation, which He so freely gives, and quit trying to analyze Him. It’s so simple. It’s unnecessary to complicate it. Love Him, worship Him, praise Him. John 14:6.
There is no cause? Well, God seems to differ with you on this then.
*Psalm 135:6-13*
Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps. He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth, who makes lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from his storehouses. He it was who struck down the firstborn of Egypt, both of man and of beast; who in your midst, O Egypt, sent signs and wonders against Pharaoh and all his servants; who struck down many nations and killed mighty kings, Sihon, king of the Amorites, and Og, king of Bashan, and all the kingdoms of Canaan, and gave their land as a heritage, a heritage to his people Israel. Your name, O Lord, endures forever, your renown, O Lord, throughout all ages.
*Isaiah 45:7-11*
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things. “Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it. “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’? Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’” Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him: “Ask me of things to come; will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?
*Lamentations 3:37-39*
Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come? Why should a living man complain, a man, about the punishment of his sins?
According to the Bible, God is the cause.
*Ephesians 2:4-5*
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
There is your cause. God.
Even when we were dead...made us alive.
Have you not read your Bible? How do you even dare say that there is no cause to your particular salvation? Certainly your claim is not biblical.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
No one should brag that it was their faith that saved them but all should understand that we are only saved by God because of our faith.
Many today have put the cart before the horse. They want to have people saved before they even believe. But as you know that is not a biblical view.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@MrW what you should understand is that Austin has a limited understanding of scripture. His bible seems to be missing a large number of verses so we should forgive his errant views.
I am limited, this is true. I did, however, provide ample scripture to show that God is the cause of our salvation. Why you reject this is much more concerning than my limitations. Truly, you are a christian humanist.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Have I ever said that we are saved other than by the grace of God, NO. But God only saves those that believe in His son. That is the condition of salvation and is one which you deny.
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