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What Is the Immutability of God?

Van

Well-Known Member
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"God is unvarying, reliable, constant, and perpetual. God never adds or subtracts from His character and emotions. They are constant and unmoving. We should be forever grateful that God is immutable, as this provides an assurance of His love and mercy toward us."

The above snippet copied from the internet provides an excellent hypothesis for defining the immutability of God.

However, to move from being an understanding formulated by man, we must verify these attributes are found in scripture, rather than read into scripture.

Numbers 23:19 (NASB)
“God is not a man, that He would lie,
Nor a son of man, that He would change His mind;
Has He said, and will He not do it?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

The above clearly teaches God keeps His word and does not vary, that we can rely on His word, and that God is consistent.

Hebrews13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever.

Here we can add that God's character and attributes do not change over time, thus we can now support the attribute of being perpetual, thus God's attributes do not change over time. However, God does as He pleases, thus He can treat one person one way and treat another person another way or both people the same way. He can condemn one individual and bestow mercy upon another.

God dictates His actions, rather than His prior actions dictating His future actions, so He can formulate the Old Covenant and then inaugurate a New Covenant.
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
God never changes. God is perfect. If He changed, then He would be a little bit better or a little bit worse. Neither is possible.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
God never changes. God is perfect. If He changed, then He would be a little bit better or a little bit worse. Neither is possible.
I missed where you supported your fiction, that God never changes "anything ever." That does not address the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Please address the specific issue.
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
I am the LORD. I change not.

His words. I believe Him, He can’t lie.

“Anything ever” was not said by me. Maybe I mistakenly thought you were replying to me.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am the LORD. I change not.

His words. I believe Him, He can’t lie.

“Anything ever” was not said by me. Maybe I mistakenly thought you were replying to me.
LOL, if in your view, God changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenent, His action would not in your mind be consistent with "I change not" anything ever. :)

Will you say what God does not change other than His characteristics and attributes. I say He changes His actions based on fulfilling His purpose.
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
I will only say what God says, for God cannot lie.

For I am the Lord, I change not... Malachi 3:6a.

He progressively revealed Himself to mankind.

The New Covenant is the continuation of His revelation of Himself to mankind. It is not a change in God.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hebrews 13:8.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is post a resurrection, and post a ascension, attribute about the Man Jesus Christ. But was always true about His deity.
The issue is "in what way is Jesus the same?" Are you claiming Jesus was not always God? That this says the man Jesus did not change from being a baby to a full grown man?

Is not the Messiah, the Christ, they Anointed One unchanged, from that prophesied in the OT, then manifested in the gospels, and to what is still foretold for end times? The answer is yes!
 

MB

Well-Known Member
I believe God's Plan for man has never changed.. Even from the OT to the NT. His plan progresses through time. It isn't changed The OT prophesies Told us Christ was coming. Just as the NT tells us the rest of God's plan and the end which is very close.
MB
 

Van

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Site Supporter
What did I say?
My questions:
Are you claiming Jesus was not always God? That this says the man Jesus did not change from being a baby to a full grown man?
Your answer:
This is post a resurrection, and post a ascension, attribute about the Man Jesus Christ. But was always true about His deity.

So lets be clear, are you claiming the MAN, repeat Man, did not change? Is Jesus in His glorified body, apparently able to walk through locked doors, unchanged from the man who suffered and died for our sin?

What tells us that yesterday starts with His ascension?
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I believe God's Plan for man has never changed.. Even from the OT to the NT. His plan progresses through time. It isn't changed The OT prophesies Told us Christ was coming. Just as the NT tells us the rest of God's plan and the end which is very close.
MB
The book of Hebrews lays out pretty clearly the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, thus God changed how people obtained approval through faith. Abraham trusted in God's promises, but to claim he believed Jesus would be raised from the grave has no basis in scripture. However to claim we are not told to believe Jesus was raised from the grave has no basis in scripture.

Immutability is an often mis-understood attribute of God, and I am trying to present the attribute as defined by scripture. See the last paragraphs of post #1.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Are you claiming Jesus was not always God?
Both yes and no. He was always the Son and He was always God. Never not the Son, never not God. He was alwaus both.
That this says the man Jesus did not change from being a baby to a full grown man?
No.
So lets be clear, are you claiming the MAN, repeat Man, did not change?
No.
Is Jesus in His glorified body, apparently able to walk through locked doors, unchanged from the man who suffered and died for our sin?
Yes.
What tells us that yesterday starts with His ascension?
When the claim of that statement was made. Post resurrection and post ascension. Nether He being the Son or being God had changed.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Immutability doctrine must be based on actual specific descriptions of that doctrine. To base doctrine of speculation, i.e. what was said after His resurrection only applies to actions after His resurrection is without support. With regard to Hebrews 13:8,
we can say God's character and attributes do not change over time, thus we can now support the attribute of being perpetual, thus God's attributes do not change over time. However, God does as He pleases, thus He can treat one person one way and treat another person another way or both people the same way. He can condemn one individual and bestow mercy upon another.

God dictates His actions, rather than His prior actions dictating His future actions, so He can formulate the Old Covenant and then inaugurate a New Covenant.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
I suppose I don't understand. I believe God planned His creation completely before He created it. Jesus 1st coming is in Isaiah 53 Wasn't Abraham declared righteous because of his faith? We are also declared righteous because of our faith in the same God.

I'm open to see your point. Even though I do not believe God Changed anything. I see it as His complete plan.
Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

MB
 
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Van

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Site Supporter
MB's post #15 might have provided some insight or acknowledgement, but all I see is my quote from post #12.

Under the Old and New Covenant's the basis for obtaining approval is by God crediting our faith as righteousness, see Romans 4.

However, under both Covenants if we repent, change our behavior, God will relent, and change His response accordingly. To claim God does not formulate conditional arrangements with humanity is nonsense. Does Jonah ring a bell.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
MB's post #15 might have provided some insight or acknowledgement, but all I see is my quote from post #12.

Under the Old and New Covenant's the basis for obtaining approval is by God crediting our faith as righteousness, see Romans 4.

However, under both Covenants if we repent, change our behavior, God will relent, and change His response accordingly. To claim God does not formulate conditional arrangements with humanity is nonsense. Does Jonah ring a bell.
I can only reply according to how I see it personally. The change would be my part by having faith in Him. To me it's either believe in Him or perish. God is still the same with the same offer.
I understand how some think that God changes His mind about us. Jonah was in God's service when he was swallowed. Jonah could do what was told to him by God or stay in the huge fish. God changed Jonah's mind. God is still the same. When I was saved the conviction God used changed my mind.God is still the same.
MB
 

Van

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Site Supporter
I can only reply according to how I see it personally. The change would be my part by having faith in Him. To me it's either believe in Him or perish. God is still the same with the same offer.
I understand how some think that God changes His mind about us. Jonah was in God's service when he was swallowed. Jonah could do what was told to him by God or stay in the huge fish. God changed Jonah's mind. God is still the same. When I was saved the conviction God used changed my mind.God is still the same.
MB
Sorry but no, God said he would overthrow the city, but relented (had compassion on) Nineveh. Thus God can change based on doing what suits his purpose.

We must formulate our doctrine of biblical teachings such that those understandings are consistent with all scripture. God does as He pleases, thus He can treat one person one way and treat another person another way or both people the same way. He can condemn one individual and bestow mercy upon another.

God dictates His actions, rather than His prior actions dictating His future actions, so He can formulate the Old Covenant and then inaugurate a New Covenant.
 

MrW

Well-Known Member
I never said God never changes anything.

I said God never changes. He Himself. He is the same eternally.

Sorry if that was not clear.
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Sorry but no, God said he would overthrow the city, but relented (had compassion on) Nineveh. Thus God can change based on doing what suits his purpose.
It's the reason He did what He did. Nineveh changed there minds about God and God knew it would happen
When Jonah preached to them.


We must formulate our doctrine of biblical teachings such that those understandings are consistent with all scripture. God does as He pleases, thus He can treat one person one way and treat another person another way or both people the same way. He can condemn one individual and bestow mercy upon another.

God dictates His actions, rather than His prior actions dictating His future actions, so He can formulate the Old Covenant and then inaugurate a New Covenant.

You are right in that God can do what He pleases.But does He do only what pleases Him? For me it's what He has done already. He died for the sins of the world. Which included me and you.So could He change His mind about all of us.
For the sake of assurance I hope not.
God has told us if we believe in His Son we will be saved. The people of Nineveh are who
I believe Changed. God just kept His promise about Faith being accounted for righteousness..
MB
 
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