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The True Gospel of Christ's Saving Death

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KenH

Well-Known Member
If that were true then we would not have any disagreement would we.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Peter 2:8 A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Did you forget this scripture or do you just ignore it as it does not fit your errant theology?
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

"but also for the sins of the whole world; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew...Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles עלמא, "the world"; and העולם כל, "the whole world"; and העולם אומות, "the nations of the world".
...
in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luke 2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1 John 5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, 1 John 2:1; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for John 17:9, and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on 1 John 2:2
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
There is absolutely NO WAY that man can "mess up" or interfere or stop God's purpose to save ALL of His elect.

This is a perfect example of what I mean. That's a true statement on it's face. God's purpose to save all of His elect will be realized. But we have to make sure we don't "mess up" by emphasizing a theology that is looking at things from God's point of view and possibly hinder people by making them worry that they may not be elect or that Christ's atonement did not cover them. If we do that, I believe God has foreseen that and His will shall still be accomplished, but we are still guilty of mishandling His word and hindering the spread of the gospel. People who reject Christ and refuse to believe will be lost because of that. They need to know that. The fact (and I believe it's true) of God's sovereignty and elective grace and even a limited atonement, is not the gospel, and it is not what a sinner needs to be told about.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
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This is a perfect example of what I mean. That's a true statement on it's face. God's purpose to save all of His elect will be realized. But we have to make sure we don't "mess up" by emphasizing a theology that is looking at things from God's point of view and possibly hinder people by making them worry that they may not be elect or that Christ's atonement did not cover them. If we do that, I believe God has foreseen that and His will shall still be accomplished, but we are still guilty of mishandling His word and hindering the spread of the gospel. People who reject Christ and refuse to believe will be lost because of that. They need to know that. The fact (and I believe it's true) of God's sovereignty and elective grace and even a limited atonement, is not the gospel, and it is not what a sinner needs to be told about.
"We should first send men to the school of faith before we send them to the University of election,"
John Rogers, early English Reformer.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
The fact (and I believe it's true) of God's sovereignty and elective grace and even a limited atonement, is not the gospel, and it is not what a sinner needs to be told about.

The apostle Paul disagrees with you: Acts of the Apostles 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

(emphasis mine)

The gospel of Christ covers from Genesis 1:1 all the way to Revelation 22:21.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
What I mean is that you can have a belief in all the doctrines of grace and yet not take them to an unscriptural extreme.
"I confess, boldly, that I hold the doctrine of particular redemption, in a certain sense, as strongly as anyone. I believe that none are effectually redeemed but God's elect. They and they only, are set free from the guilt, and power and consequences of sin. But I hold no less strongly, that Christ's work of atonement is sufficient for all mankind. There is a sense in which he has tasted death for every man, and has taken upon Him the sin of the whole world. I dare not pare down, and fine away, what appear to me the plain statements of Scripture. I dare not shut a door which God seems, to my eyes, to have left open. I dare not tell any man on earth that Christ has done nothing for him, and that he has no warrant to apply boldly to Christ for salvation. I must abide by the statements of the Bible. Christ is God's gift to the whole world." This is J.C. Ryle

Ken, I'm not saying you do this but I am saying that we need to be careful that we don't do what Ryle is warning about above. The Gospel message is that anyone who comes to Christ can rely on the fact that he did die for them and will forgive them. The theology of God's sovereignty in this is not the point at this time. In fact, it's most assuredly NOT the point because if we don't come with a child like faith we can have no part in this. If, as a strict Calvinist you want to be precise and say "Christ has died, and you can repent and believe" instead of saying "Christ has died for your sins and you can repent and believe" then I see no problem with that. I wouldn't go any further putting up barriers.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
I dare not tell any man on earth that Christ has done nothing for him

A teacher of God's Word should declare that Christ died for His sheep. It is not required to say that He did not die for the goats, as that is obviously true from the exclusivity of Christ's statement. A teacher of God's Word should declare what God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, have done to save God's elect. ALL of God's elect will be regenerated and given ears to hear and eyes to see according to God's purpose and timing in their lives, and given the gifts of repentance toward God and faith toward Christ.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
and that he has no warrant to apply boldly to Christ for salvation

None of us, including J.C. Ryle, know if a person who hears the gospel is among the elect before and unless God regenerates them. God's elect don't go around with a sign on their forehead saying, "Elect of God".
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
The theology of God's sovereignty in this is not the point at this time.

Seems to me there is a lot of the thought process going on along the lines of, "Don't tell someone too much of the gospel right off the bat. Just tell them enough to convince to make a decision or to walk an aisle or to pray the "sinner's prayer" or to get immersed", and other such nonsense.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
A teacher of God's Word should declare that Christ died for His sheep. It is not required to say that He did not die for the goats, as that is obviously true from the exclusivity of Christ's statement. A teacher of God's Word should declare what God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, have done to save God's elect. ALL of God's elect will be regenerated and given ears to hear and eyes to see according to God's purpose and timing in their lives, and given the gifts of repentance toward God and faith toward Christ.

The danger here is subtle but the above gives me the creeps. I think this kind of messaging is so strongly emphasizing election that it gives the impressing you are trying to assist God in being the gatekeeper. I think Ryle was worried about this, as have others before and after him. You are right above where you said no one knows who is elect except by the results of being born again. But it works both ways. I don't know why any theological road blocks need to be thrown in front of people who hear the Gospel.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
I have made none that I am aware of.
If one is aware of do such, one would not.
A case in point. I presonally believe in both the general redenption and that Christ died to explicitly to redeem His own. I do not believe in universalism.
Jesus' quote as given in Luke, His redemption includes lost Judas, Luke 22:20-21, ". . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ."
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Seems to me there is a lot of the thought process going on along the lines of, "Don't tell someone too much of the gospel right off the bat. Just tell them enough to convince to make a decision or to walk an aisle or to pray the "sinner's prayer" or to get immersed", and other such nonsense.

There is. And that is a good reason to have a basic Calvinistic theology. It sets up guidelines to keep us from using techniques and promising things that are not part of the gospel either. Whether it be a better, more happy life of peace and prosperity, or whether it be the result of just a winsome and persuasive worker a good dose of Calvinism puts the brakes on that stuff. I'm with you there but I don't think that works as a valid point against J.C. Ryle. He just didn't do that.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
The apostle Paul disagrees with you: Acts of the Apostles 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

(emphasis mine)

The gospel of Christ covers from Genesis 1:1 all the way to Revelation 22:21.

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Appears that I am being attacked by three versus one. Okie dokie.

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